History & Creation Discussion/Spain/theory & studies
Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:47 am
4enduro
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 87
Although extensive migrations in the past make it difficult
to find clear connections between mtDNA haplotypes and
geographic groups, we present a set of genetic data revealing
that New World breeds have a high frequency of haplotypes
of Iberian origin and represent a subset of the diversity found
in Iberia. Therefore, this study supports the historically documented
Iberian origins of New World horses.
Acknowledgments
from
http://www.andalusianhorseclub.com/PDFs/107.pdf
and from another study
The closest relationship found, as
shown by data on table VI, was
between Andalusian and Paso Fino
horses, as expected from Paso Fino
breed history. Moreover, variant Tf
J, considered as a blood genetic
marker of the Andalusian horse breed
http://www.andalusianhorseclub.com/PDFs/Rodriguez-Gallardo.pdf
for sake of arguement and discussion we know during what hisory has come to call the viking age they raided Mediterrainain civilizations and they being seafaring raider put thier horses on isles to have thier transport for raiding as w know they controled trade in the Med. Sea area during these times . the berbers raided Spain and left thier horses on the same isles with the Vikings gaited icelandics .I will say(guess) are our long lost jennets known as Spanish Jennets also known as Palfreys and in America the naraganset pacer also our isles horses & possibly some of the ponies. Now cross them call them Castillian and send them to the new world as they are war horses of the top calliber, Native Ameican horseback tribes knew that and chose not to breed them to Enlish derivation TB and the likes.Some preservation is known to protected breds like Choctaw and used to be old original Appys, and by natural sellection and geographical protection the sapnish colonial mustangs join along with marsh tackies aka Cracker hroses and paso finos from isles and S.American pasos
a paso fino owner is shown here riding her andalusian
_________________ yes we are out there/ WAY/extreme sport riding where serious horse riders see paso finos.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:29 am
britzlove
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 433
Location: Indiana
OK, bear with me, this will be long, but I'm gonna try to propose my hypothetical thoughts.
Evolution, there's lots out there that dispute it, but I think the volumes of scientific evidence are enough to substantiate it. I think evolution is constant, meaning, it didn't mysteriously stop once something is achieved, we're gonna change, horses are gonna change.
Consider first this reference to human evolution (and I promise it ties in)
Quote:
Even within the last 100,000 years, the long-term trends towards smaller molars and decreased robustness can be discerned. The face, jaw and teeth of Mesolithic humans (about 10,000 years ago) are about 10% more robust than ours. Upper Paleolithic humans (about 30,000 years ago) are about 20 to 30% more robust than the modern condition in Europe and Asia. These are considered modern humans, although they are sometimes termed "primitive". Interestingly, some modern humans (aboriginal Australians) have tooth sizes more typical of archaic sapiens. The smallest tooth sizes are found in those areas where food-processing techniques have been used for the longest time. This is a probable example of natural selection which has occurred within the last 10,000 years (Brace 1983).
Modern forms of Homo sapiens first appear about 195,000 years ago. Modern humans have an average brain size of about 1350 cc. The forehead rises sharply, eyebrow ridges are very small or more usually absent, the chin is prominent, and the skeleton is very gracile. About 40,000 years ago, with the appearance of the Cro-Magnon culture, tool kits started becoming markedly more sophisticated, using a wider variety of raw materials such as bone and antler, and containing new implements for making clothing, engraving and sculpting. Fine artwork, in the form of decorated tools, beads, ivory carvings of humans and animals, clay figurines, musical instruments, and spectacular cave paintings appeared over the next 20,000 years. (Leakey 1994)
Basically, to summarize these two pages reference a recent find that shows horses were domesticated 5600 BC in Kazakhstan and the level of domestication indicated that the practice must actually have roots much earlier in what is the "Ukraine or western Russia". Add the current year 2008 to 5600 and we've got evidence that horses have served us for 7,608 years. Almost 8000 years. Getting pretty close to the 10,000 that recent changes occured in humans with evident changes to physiology.
COnsider that it must have occured before the Kazakhstan site, this is where I think along lines.
So, we have horses first domesticated in the region of Western Russia. Now we have to think about what those horses looked like. Well, we have surviving wild herds, the Przewalskii Horse and the Tarpan of Northern Europe. What is horribly tragic is that the Tarpan is now extinct, at least in it's original form because the last one died in captivity in 1917 or 1918. They were exterminated as nuisances primarily. Genetic testing suggests that the Przewalskii Horse is not likely the ancestor of the vast majority of our horses today. The exception of course, is the domesticated horses of Mongolia. Now they've been breeding them for centuries, and they've changed little, perhaps because their wild ancestors haven't needed to. They haven't left the enviornment which hasn't changed much either.
What I'd love to see, and couldn't find, is studies of when the first horses of the European region were domesticated. Were the relatives of the Tarpan, like the horses of Mongolia before they radiated to the region? I'm sure its more likely that they radiated, along with humans, in the same times, so that evolution created different herds for each region.
Somewhere along this timeline, a wild herd must have developed the ambling gait for some selection of purpose. It's the only way, I can concievably reconsile this. It had to have occured, somewhere. We have to think that it happened in Europe, but I had in my mind a Middle Eastern horse that ambled, but could find no reference for it here, it probably comes from one of those old books in childhood reads.
I think that there's a good chance that horses who retained an amble gait, and horses that trotted, continued to evolve alongside each other. I don't find alot of evidence that gait was much of a selection in early equitation. I think that humans began fooling with horses, just after they started riding them.
This leads to the 1400-1600 period when the Spanish horses were being defined. It's entirely possible to me, that there were still some horses that retained the characteristics of amble, and the smaller, compact but strong traits that were desireable to some. I'm thinking they weren't refined for nobility, but usability. I'm thinking that the horses Cortez brought over included some of both, horses of nobility, and horses of general purpose. I think certainly, after the natives were subdued, and the people of Spain came to South American, and southern N.America, both types had to have come over with them.
Which horses were likely to survive if they escaped to the wilds of South America? The horses selected by nobile characteristics for physical mass to be impressive? Or the horses whose traits let them survive in the wilds of Spain and Europe (not easy topography)? When I look at those cart horses in South America, when I see those tough little monsters, as I said, potentially the smoothest horses I've ever seen. When I look at the using horses of Honduras, or Colombia, or Peru, or Chile, I see something wonderful. Unfortunately, they don't have what we'd call noble charateristics. They really aren't that pretty, though some are.
Though many reference the 500 year thing, history says that the majority of Spanish population actually occured in the very late 1500s to the late 1600s. As people came, horses came. This leaves no time for horses to have evolved for the landscapes really. All the work at the time was spent trying to establish communities here. It's during this time, that horses did begin escaping and populating, and continually radiating. My point is, these horses retained this smooth gait, from Spain. It only makes sense to me. It may have changed in 400 years, but, it has to have it's root in Europe. This is what makes it extremely sad that the majority of wild European horses are mostly gone. I'd love to study those periods when something happened that caused these horses to disappear from Europe.
So, back to the divergence of Spanish horses and the horses of America. At some period, the ambling horses of Spain, disappeared. Certainly after they came here. What happened? I don't know, but I'd sure like to find out.
If we accept:
Quote:
The Pure Spanish Horse was unified as a breed in the sixteenth century (between 1567 and 1593) by the Spanish King Felipe II who formally established the standards for the breed which we recognize today as the Pure Spanish Horse. During these years King Felipe II decided to bring to life the universally idealized horse which has been so long pictured in history, in bronze, in paintings. He looked at the basic horse bred in Spain, selected the best of those examples which came closest to the idealized animal he desired, and directed that the idealized horse be produced. Concurrent with his breeding program, the humanistic approach was spreading through Spain and the teachings of the ancient Greek Xenophon were put into practice for the treatment and training of these carefully bred horses
We see that these characteristics deemed by him to be the best are the basis of the testing characteristics of the current PRE horse. This is the same period when other Spanish, were coming to America. It suggests to me, futher that the horse of nobility, those with power, was genetically manipulated to create the horse we see today. And somehow, the horse of the people became less in fashion? I'm just postulating.
What I think happened, is that both types came over. The hardiest horses survived to populate the peoples horses and wild horses. It was a period when usefullness, superceeded nobility and vanity. I think this is why, if you look over the usful horses of today, you're still going to find spread all over South America, a certain type of horse, with certain traits, one of them being, that many of them do not trot.
When I look at the histories of the countries, this is what says to me, the refinement for paso fino, occured far more recently than 500 years ago. I'm even going to say that the development of what we recognize today, was actually a very recent development. Just like the Saddlebred was a recent development. I have magazines from 1939 and they were only known as Saddle Horses, and mostly identified by individual progenators. Or, they were TB and identified as such.
I simply feel that what we regonize today as a breed, has it's roots in old stock, but it's modification and developement have been recent. Certainly South Americans were far to busy living and working, to really do much breeding for vanity. Eventually, many people had the means and the ideas to make the native horses better. Just like Felipe, along the way, characteristics for what makes a better individual were defined and the paso horses began to develop.
I think, but I don't know, that the greatest degree of specialization actually occured in PR. If you think about it, it's a tiny island. Though it has a history of sugar cane production, do you know how much sugar cane you can fit on an acre? Lots. Far different than a cattle ranch, and I'm going to submit that there just aren't that many ranches, to outnumber plantations, farms. I could be totally wrong, but this is why I think you can recognize more of a type of PR horse.
When I think of Colombia, my readings indicate, to me, that the criollo horse is used for work. I'm thinking, and I could be wrong, but I'm thinking that the criollo can both trot and paso, or one or the other. I'm thinking that the working people do not entirely fixate on the horses ability to paso while working cattle. I'm thinking they select individual horses that are good at their job. I find the same thing happens with the cattle culture N. America.
So then, whether or not Spanish blood was reintroduced or not to me is a non-issue. Do I believe that there is some masked blood in Spanish stock that may go back to those horses of 400 years ago? Maybe, but it doesn't really matter to me. What I can observe is, that Spanish horses now trot.
All the credit lays at the feet of the breeders who envisioned something, that gave us, what we have. Current breeders should study those things that they used to create what we have, to continue to preserve it.
This is where I think we have the obligation to honor what was done, and continue to develop the breed in their vision. If what you want, is a horse that can gait and work, and your thought is not to create a smooth saddle horse that absorbs much of the concussion, you may be envisioning something entirely different.
And this takes us to the idea that if you think wobbly rear ends and disjointed motion is OK, it's OK for you, but not in keeping with the ideals of the breed. If you think it's OK to create a bunch of horses with crooked legs, but never ceases to gait, that's OK for you too, but not in keeping with the ideals of the breed. Then we get to the marketing aspects and an entire different discussion about selling what the paso fino is.
I hate to see how long this is going to be and I bet no one reads it, but it was tons of fun preparing.
Just a couple thoughts on your theories. First, I think that you are looking at things from a perspective that is somewhat skewed because of your knowledge of PRE horses. The first evidence of this is that you seem to think that all horses trotted and then some came along that gaited. There is no basis in fact for this assumption. Assume that all horses were gaited at first and see how this affects the rest of your thought process.
Next is the fact that you feel because the horses that this King Felippe chose were apparently trotting horses that that was the style for the aristocracy and that this was universally accepted as the best quality horse type of the day. Again noting that this was the foundation for the PRE horses.
So your writings and theories all seem to stem from one who has a PRE prejudice in thinking that the PRE horse was "all that with chocolat on top". But what if this King Felippe guy was as weird, egotistical and controlling as most of the Kings of the time period. What if he chose this particular style of horse based not on the fact that it had any significance at all but based upon the fact that his cousin the King of somewhere else had gaited horses and he was in competition with him. Or what if this King Felippe in fact knew nothing about horses and liked these paritucular ones because he thought they were pretty. Or because he was after some woman who liked them.
Bottom lime is, history is tainted by a lot of warmongering rulers who may or may not have done things for the right reason or for any reason at all for that matter. And I do not think that one can hang the history of the horse on the doings of one such ruler as things in those days changed ruler to ruler.
Of course, you may be entirely correct in all your assumptions and I may be blowing smoke up somewhere. But they are assumptions and theories which will never be provable or disprovable so theorize on. I am just not sure why it all matters other than for an intellectual pursuit and an afternoon of pondering. Personally I have grown much too jaded with age to derive much pleasure from ponderings that cannot be proven by fact and I have a genuine mistrust of the science of this world that derives what it considers to be fact from hypothesis and theory. So any such ponderings based upon the facts that science provides only leads to frustration and more questions about whether said facts have truely been proven or not. So I tend to stick with what I can touch and feel for my reality. Boy, I bet that was more than you ever wanted to know about me.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:58 pm
4enduro
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 87
ok I will add that most any horse can find gait as we know it in paso finos. isochronal not amblethat is a lateral gait). Prancing QH's resemble trocha horses but the tendancy is quelled and bred out of the breed for the most part. TB have a difficult time and they are mostly working off the froehand naturally. rear drive horses can find isochroal gait when strength trained and riden correctly(or as a paso fino trainer from Colombia can get from these horses whose tendancies lean toward diagonal gait)I am not saying there are not lateral horses from Colombia of course there are all modalities. And the line bred for clasic fino have the isochronal that is the trend in our showring and can look so snazzy that all are impressed. I am saying that if the horses that have natural gait are differant it is genetic and also dictated by genes one day they will identify, until then I say the evolution theory is plausable because all horses have a magic way of adapting through demand asked of them a mode and style of execution for the terrain and work asked of their bodies.when say rodeo arena horses are developed for uses and physically trained the generation could be adapting. And perhaps other demands will be dictated by nature.rather than man's demands like moutain bred riden horses developed differantly in generations in multi- terained Colombia chronicalled in The Paso Colombiano when regional examples(exemplars)were cross bred to meld all best traits in the ultimate horse.Andean colombian horses resembling peruvian traveling types(remember passages through Andes between countries is almost if not impassable and the reason for similarity is terrain dictated rather than being same horses)and their plains stockmen's criollos (cattle country)and the island beach types from similarities to and perhaps being same from geographical and trade reasons as PR stock. the best were competed agaist each other early on then the wealthiest most powerful and able to acquisition Don's,Barons and Lords were securing the lines they percieved as best broodstock to build a better champion.
then look at the same thing taking place in PR and later USA and look at generations of trends dictating demands on changes.same happens in other breeds since autos have changed horses as not being transport and work animals only.
I guess what I say is if in 100 years things can change in a type of trend in our horses then of course the demands on european breeds going from gaited for riding horses to trotting work animals . One could think that an transport animal to save themselves(an easier to perform a trot than isocronal gait). So the lateral or amble is just about not an asked for gait from the horse itself or rarely for riders who before colonization worldwide were unfamiliar to a horses back.Common folk acquired horses and transport during colonial days worldwide before that explosion in expansion the folk lived where they did business walked and rode in carriages or wagons and did not own horses other than plow animals mostly oxen and some mules or draft type.
Last edited by 4enduro on Fri May 02, 2008 2:32 pm; edited 2 times in total _________________ yes we are out there/ WAY/extreme sport riding where serious horse riders see paso finos.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 2:10 pm
britzlove
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 433
Location: Indiana
Quote:
Just a couple thoughts on your theories. First, I think that you are looking at things from a perspective that is somewhat skewed because of your knowledge of PRE horses. The first evidence of this is that you seem to think that all horses trotted and then some came along that gaited. There is no basis in fact for this assumption. Assume that all horses were gaited at first and see how this affects the rest of your thought process.
I can go there, I understand what you are saying. Actually, I think if I go more in and tell you that I actually think both developed in about the same time. I’ll add another reference to something that leads me to believe that in Europe, there was probably an enormous population that led to some horses of ambling gait as well.
All I meant to do was think along history, so I have zero problem with admitting that there’s not much in the way of evidence either way. I was just kinda trying to think about what I could find, and things I thought. And to share some things that I found of interest with some people that might also be interested.
On to the horses interesting I didn’t include in my first novel:
They live here:
What are these? Want to guess? You like guessing games.
Though a scan over them may give it away.
Quote:
So your writings and theories all seem to stem from one who has a PRE prejudice in thinking that the PRE horse was "all that with chocolat on top".
I don’t believe I have a prejudice. True, I don’t want to see any disparaging of the breeders who specifically breed these horses with trot. True, I personally love them equal to the pasos, not mine, but I find as much to admire about well-bred Spanish and also Portuguese horses, as I do in the pasos. Or Thoroughbreds for that matter. I happen to think they all are
Quote:
"all that with chocolat on top"
I also cannot follow that classical dressage principals necessarily follow horses that were only gaited. It does not make sense to me, that somehow, the vast majority of equines trot, and I suppose the horses of the steppes somehow reverted to trot anymore when it wasn’t cool to gait? To me, the only way it makes sense, is that if the most primitive surviving horses trot, it’s far more likely that trot came first. As I said before, I think that the amble does go back to some population in Europe, possibly even selected for before the first Europeans decided to ride horses. It’s a shame that the Tarpan is extinct.
Quote:
And I do not think that one can hang the history of the horse on the doings of one such ruler as things in those days changed ruler to ruler.
You know, I hope others didn’t read that I was trying to do that. I absolutely think that many varieties of horses existed much before he set those criteria down, and I am well aware criteria has been added and deleted. That was more a reference to time frame than anything else.
Quote:
Of course, you may be entirely correct in all your assumptions and I may be blowing smoke up somewhere. But they are assumptions and theories which will never be provable or disprovable so theorize on. I am just not sure why it all matters other than for an intellectual pursuit and an afternoon of pondering. Personally I have grown much too jaded with age to derive much pleasure from ponderings that cannot be proven by fact and I have a genuine mistrust of the science of this world that derives what it considers to be fact from hypothesis and theory.
There are no facts, only interpretations.
Friedrich Nietzsche
For the people that created this type horse. For those who took risks and made tough decisions, and invested lifetimes into these horses to ensure that when it reached North America in modern times we have something truly special, I am in debt, because I am fascinated by them.
We have a choice of gaits to pick from, a choice of types, styles, the most fascinating breed for sure. So ultimately, never believe I have anything other than the utmost admiration and awe for those who brought us paso horses and have allowed us to enjoy them. *edited for rewording.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:25 pm
4enduro
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 87
It is only the finest riding horse ;in the paso fino that we find gait naturally Execution of this gait being developed and bred for through history is a wonder and art. Appropriate breeding being the preservation of traits and all the rest of natural selection put us in the unique position of having the best and finest breed designed for riding pleasure.
It is because all other factors ,made other breeds, that we can thank the creation of our horses and the grace and good fortune to keep it though selection. Seeem our passion allowed us to continue appreciation no matter the where it comes from. All the aspects from where the traits is honored here by discussion.
_________________ yes we are out there/ WAY/extreme sport riding where serious horse riders see paso finos.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:44 pm
BigJ
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 1038
4enduro wrote:
ok I will add that most any horse can find gait as we know it in paso finos. isochronal not amblethat is a lateral gait). Prancing QH's resemble trocha horses but the tendancy is quelled and bred out of the breed for the most part. TB have a difficult time and they are mostly working off the froehand naturally. rear drive horses can find isochroal gait when strength trained and riden correctly(or as a paso fino trainer from Colombia can get from these horses whose tendancies lean toward diagonal gait)
I doubt it. Many TBs have been used successfully in dressage where rear end impulsion and collection are paramount. It has little to do with training and more to do with genetics. Of course a horse can be forced/trained into the unnatural but that proves nothing as far as I am concerned. I don't see the point. I'd like to see more Warmbloods in the dressage ring gait, especially at the Gran Prix level, but I'm not holding my breath.
_________________ Be the change you want to see in the world. Gandhi
ok I will add that most any horse can find gait as we know it in paso finos. isochronal not amblethat is a lateral gait).
Oh, I strongly disagree with this statement. A non-gaited horse does not gait any more than my dog does.
Britz, so are those pics all the same breed of horse? I have no guess. The green grass pics look like Ireland type area but the pic that you posted of from where they come looks more like the holy land. So I have no clue. What are they.
I will have to disagree also with the theory that trotting horses came first and I will explain why. It is very simple really and I have seen it evidenced in my lifetime so I know that it is not a theory but rather scientific fact. One can breed the four beat gait OUT of a line of horse by breeding to non-gaited horses never to retreive it after a certain period of time. But I have NEVER seen a gaited horse pop up out of a breeding of non-gaited horses. I have however seen pure bred Paso Fino horses who do not for whatever reason gait at all. Therefore, I must conclude that the gait had to be there from the begining as it cannot be bred from trotting horses. However, all horses trot. Every gaited horses can trot as well as gait. So it only serves to reason that some lost the ability to gait somewhere along the way. But I think that it is pretty far reach to think that somehwere along the way some of them just started to gait. Could there have been both at the same time? Sure. But why would there have been? It stands more to reason if one follows through with the known facts of inheritance of gait that all horses at one time were gaited and some lost the ability.
I learned at some point and have always since that time thought it true as it makes perfect sense that all horses were gaited horses at one time. And then people started riding in buggys or carts or carrages or chariots or whatever one called them at each specific time. It was after this that people started breeding the horses that trotted more so than gaited because their gait was more fancy. They were higher steppers. This makes perfect sense to me and is really all I personally need to know about the history of the gaited horse.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:49 pm
4enduro
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 87
yes Candice you are right I have not seen a TB or WB do any real jigs or jogs even when doing passage it is real trotty and animated nowhere near isochronal.
So perhaps I was grabbing for reaction and I should back off going down this road as it may not be anywhere near possible for any horse to find gait. Hmmm sigh.....perhaps...... grant but a few in each breed may have it in thier genetics still, is more what straws I guess I was grasping at for the sake of misguided argument. I know I am crazy in my quest for making the analytical right brain liniar thinkers go to other realms of thought to where shaded and blurry lines go without edges and make romantic soft edged foggy images and unicorns and pegasus exist.
_________________ yes we are out there/ WAY/extreme sport riding where serious horse riders see paso finos.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:18 pm
BigJ
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 1038
I'm only confused that's all.
So far, no one has identified the reason for a type of gait. I'm a tad more interested than Cindy about where it comes from, however, I agree it's been here for a long long time. Not trot, not pace, but a type of gait that is in between. We have too many horses all over the world with a gait that isn't a pace or a trot but some other type of gait.
Gaited Horse Magazine had an article mentioning the genes for trot and pace are not the same. We could explore this further with the Standardbred. The breed started with only trotting horses. Later they opened the stud book for pacing horses. I don't know how the horses are bred--trotter with trotter or what, but it would be interesting to see how many don't trot or pace.
I still suspect gait is a result of modifier genes at minimum, probably polyautosomal in expression and requires more genetic material besides trot or pace. Whether "gait" is wholly independent of trot or pace, who knows?
_________________ Be the change you want to see in the world. Gandhi
I think it is absolutely wholly (is that how that is spelled? ) independent of trot and pace. Why? Because if you breed a trotting horse to a pacing horse you do not, contrary to popular belief, get gait. You get either trot or pace. This would also be evidence that the gene that carries gait is not, as you theorize, a modifier gene but rather a wholly seperate gait gene all it's own. Wouldn't it? The answer to how many do not trot or pace is none. They are either trotters or pacers. Assuming that they breed the trotters to the pacers and I do not know if they do. Sheri would know. Maybe she will drop by.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:32 pm
BigJ
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 1038
wholly.
Too lazy to spell check or proofread. That's why I have supervisors.
Lost my post. I want to modify my comments about the modifier genes. Perhaps I meant was there are genes which modify the way gait is expressed and could be tied into phenotype otherwise wouldn't we have different looking horses all gaiting the same? Only speculating on my part.
The diagonal evolution in Colombia has certainly peaked my interest because of this. Also we have people crossing pasos with trotters and with other gaited breeds, which should provide some clues about where gait comes from.
All I know is we have it, I don't want to lose it, and would like to know where it came from so I can keep it.
_________________ Be the change you want to see in the world. Gandhi
I want to modify my comments about the modifier genes. Perhaps I meant was there are genes which modify the way gait is expressed and could be tied into phenotype otherwise wouldn't we have different looking horses all gaiting the same? Only speculating on my part.
Yes. I agree entirely with that. Just like there are modifiers that affect the expression of the trotting breeds.
Quote:
Also we have people crossing pasos with trotters and with other gaited breeds, which should provide some clues about where gait comes from.
And this is from where I have arrived at my personal conclusions as I have seen that introducing non-gaiting breeds does not produce gait in the offspring. Nor would one expect the non-gaiting offspring to produce gaiting offspring.
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 2:39 pm
britzlove
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 433
Location: Indiana
I don't want to lose gait either. I am not the enemy of gait. I simply give alot of credit to both the horses, and the people.
I would love to study the history and species evolution of the horse. I'd love to find out what happened to gaited horses in Europe. All of that.
My main problem is, that most horses, trot. The overwhelming existence of trotting horses compared to horses that do something else is never going to let me believe that humans developed trot for harness horses. Especially when I look at horses that are believed to have very old origins. Arabians, trot.
The history of the Preswalskis horse shows that they had the forthought to capture the few remaining, and protectively allow them to breed in captivity. They were recently reintroduced to the wild. They were not cross bred, and are essentially the same, as they were well before humans even domesticated them. Their ancestors, as a result of human manipulation, have changed a little, but the Mongolian steppe horses of today, are incredibly similar to the Preswalskis horse. The anthropological evidence, suggests that, horses were first domesticated to provide milk and food. I tend to put alot of credence in the theory that if those horses were primarily for food and milk, and the Mongolian people, still use them the same way, with very little influence from outside forces, and those horses trot, I think that those horses have always trotted.
There is a video, a PBS video showing these horses and thier people, with Julia Roberts, you can rent it from Netflix.
Those horses no one guessed about, are the Pyrenean Tarpan, the Bosque wild ponies, the Pottock. They live throughout the Bosque region of Spain and France. They are generally thought to have existed in the region since before recent human history. I made sure to post a bunch of pictures, because there was a roan, and a primitive grulla, and even a pinto, and various types. They have been domesticated some, and refined some, but they trot. Perhaps some ancestor of theirs was gaited, to me, looking at them, I think it entirely possible they may have some traits in common with whatever ancestor actually brought gait. I have been unable to find any reference to any current gaited breeds, other than those with pace, in that region anywhere.
But I look at those horses, and the Carthusian, Cartujano and think there may be something to a background in common. I don't know if the point is that only some horses of the region gaited first, then trotted, OK maybe. But I just get hung up on the Mongolian horses. Those people have changed little, the lifestyle hasn't changed, the horses haven't changed. They most certainly weren't the kind to start breeding out gait for flash. And that's just whats always going to make me believe that somewhere along the way, not 500 years ago, not 1000 years ago, but even longer, there were ancestors of todays horses of both trot and gait. I would love to study it, and I don't find alot of researchers devoting their lives to really specializing in Equus evolution. It's kind of sad. I'm too old, to persue it, and much too spoiled, and rooted in my family. But if I were single, I think I'd be really into it.
Or is it that you are saying that before the modern species horses were gaited? I might could go there a little easier. I had thought that these sorts of hypothetical thoughts were what I would have found fun.
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 3:16 pm
grif
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 170
Quote:
Or is it that you are saying that before the modern species horses were gaited? I might could go there a little easier. I had thought that these sorts of hypothetical thoughts were what I would have found fun.
I'm not really saying anything as I do not know the answer. What I DO know is that gait can be bred OUT of a line but trot cannot and gait cannot be bred from trotting horses nor from a horse that trots to a horse that paces. So it stands to reason that gait was there first as it would have had nowhere to come from were it not. Could there have been simultaneously horses that gait and horses that trot? Sure. There are now. But the gaited horses could not possibly have been bred from the totting horses. The way that I see it.
) independent of trot and pace. Why? Because if you breed a trotting horse to a pacing horse you do not, contrary to popular belief, get gait. You get either trot or pace. This would also be evidence that the gene that carries gait is not, as you theorize, a modifier gene but rather a wholly seperate gait gene all it's own. Wouldn't it? The answer to how many do not trot or pace is none. They are either trotters or pacers. Assuming that they breed the trotters to the pacers and I do not know if they do. Sheri would know. Maybe she will drop by.