PasoVoice.Com :: What is the Judges' term for this.....

caliber · Site Admin

In Spanish is defined as Speed! according to the University of Antioquia.

on this clip they mention
Cadencia Lenta meaning in Spanish! SLOW SPEED!

pasosx3

Big J: I'm going to jump in here to clarify quickly. I am not asking anyone to agree on what cadence is, and I perfectly understand your reluctance to capitulate (for intellectual reasons). I think the discussion of cadence is interesting as it relates to the rhythm and speed of the gait, but that is not what I was inquiring about in my original post.

So....I am asking: Can we agree that the "over-pounding" with one foot or galope/galopito (my Initial question) has nothing to do with the discussion of cadence?

If we can do that, then I am satisfied that my Initial inquiry has been answered satisfactorily, although I am still curious about the term 'impact' and 'falsiendo' as it might relate to galope/galopito. I do think that perhaps the Topic of Cadence might be a great Topic in a New Thread!

BigJ · Last edited by BigJ on Mon May 05, 2008 4:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

Oh brother! Rolling Eyes

This is why I don't bother.

First no one bothers to read that I am trying to clarify and to do so means to get into the details of the discussion. Because let me tell you my English speaking gringos, when you say "YYYY" thinking "XXXXX" you will be wrong because I will now ask how you differentiate XXXX from YYYY of the SAME horse in the SAME gait.

Second, I have repeated myself several times that I think we are in agreement BUT the words are not quite the same meaning when translated or when speaking a different language.

Third, FINALLY some one understands! Thanks Felix!

Last, if we do not take the time to dissect the terms of description we risk never reaching an understanding of agreement! Even if it is to say we may not exactly agree with how we describe the SAME trait.

I'd rather not pretend to agree just because to do so gives everyone the false impression a common understanding has been reached. This is more damaging as far as I am concerned because now you have not only a poorly understood trait but someone poorly explaining it to the ignorant.

I'd rather people say I'm disagreeable and obstinate, even stupid before having them believe I truly understand and they have taught me well.

Well, I'll keep my own council about gait. I see no purpose in having a discussion if we cannot accept there will be not only misunderstandings but mutual disagreements.

And for the record I didn't even bother to read the freakin' judging system because I have absolutely no interest in it. I was interested in a PEOPLE's thoughts not some system telling them what to think.

cadence (n)
Synonyms: tempo, rhythm, pace, pulse, stroke, beat
Synonyms: lilt, intonation, accent, modulation, inflection, tone

In Spanish the first is applied; in English I apply the second. Neither is necessarily wrong depending on the context and meaning applied. Please don't insult me by suggesting I don't know the meaing of words of my native language. As I have suggested in previous posts, trying to force a term to stand alone without influence of another is near impossible.

Here's what I found when I looked up the translation.

http://www.spanishdict.com/translate/cadencia

caliber · Site Admin

I see you point Candice, and I agreed!

grif

Jejeje, that is why I vacated this thread, Candice. It became obvious that there was not going to be a discussion here. We can all lecture to each other all day long but if there is not DIALOG then we will never come to an understanding of why some think that cadence has something to do with speed and others do not.

Kerry, we are all here to discuss issues. If the issues cannot be discussed without someone getting all upset and deciding to never share their thoughts with us again, then we may as well all go home and play with our own toys all by ourselves. I guess that those to whom you have refered are the Spanish speaking individuals in our midst. I absolutely agree with you that it is great to see them here and helping us all to share and learn more. But, to be honest with you, from those that I have met, they are not a terribly shy bunch. And not at all afraid to have tremendous discussions. Very Happy

I would much prefer to HAVE discussion rather than being lectured to, to be quite honest. I asked many questions here trying to come to some understanding of the different opinions that had been brought up. The last questions that I ask were met with no answers. Basically ignored. It was at that point that it was obvious to me that this was no longer to be a discussion. You see, it is very easy to lecture but it is takes much more thought to answer the Q and A session after the lecture. But it is in this Q and A session where most of the learning takes place. So, to me, the lecture without the Q and A session is like a sandwich with no meat. And I am a meat eater. So I decided to post some definitions that others could possibly use and leave the thread.

Having said that, here I am again. Why? Well, for one thing, Becky asked me a question that I intend to answer for her. And secondly, I felt that I had to say something about the issue of people staying silent when they have questions just to not "start something". I thought that this was the place that we COULD actually discuss like adults. Was I wrong? I really would like to hear what Diego has to say in regard to the questions that I asked of him. Candice and I both have respect for Diego. Noone is trying to diss him. We are just trying to figure out why we have these differences in words. And that is all it is, words. We all know what the horses are supposed to do. We are all in agreement when we see a horse performing correctly and when we see a horse performing incorrectly. But there is a language thing that sometimes gets in the way of the words that we use to communicate what we see. I think that that is where we are here. But if we do not discuss beyond our own egos then we will never come to complete understanding of each other and how we call things. For example, I posted all the definitions that I posted so that they could be used to futher the discussion. The response from Diego was that the definitions that I posted were very clear. I have absolutely no idea what that means or how it relates to the difference of opinion that we had about the word, cadence. I would love to know how the definitions relate in Diego's mind to his definition of cadence which is "the speed of the rhythm". But I do not have such knowledge becuse he has chosen to instead leave me with that post that I am sure he posted so as not to cause problems but what it has really done is to patronize me. To pat me on the head and give me a lollipop. But, the thing is, I can get my wn lollipops. What I would rather have from Diego is some intellectual discussion. That's why I am here. I don't have time for placating, I work for a living. So, how about we all dispense with the formalities and have some reall dialog here? Please? I will start in a new post.

grif

The first thing that I would like to bring up is the fact that we have now had enough people define the word "cadence" as "the speed of the rhythm" to warrant the question is this written down somewhere? We had this definition from Jorge Torres and from Diego and from the mysterious Puerto Rican stranger. So my question is, is there a place that this definition is written that all of these people have seen it written and learned this as the definition of cadence. If so, where is this place. I have posted all of the definitions that I have found.

Secondly, I would like to reprint the portion of the CONFEPASO rules that I posted earlier that uses the word "cadence".

"During this sequence, the pause between the strikes of the lateral and diagonal are equidistant. It is this even cadence that is the basic characteristic of the Paso Fino gait and that which distinguishes it from other gaits. Musical to the ear, it translates into rapid and equally spaced movements in a 1-2-3-4 cadence. When the horse is at its top performance, it seems unified and rhythmical, moving its legs smoothly and elastically as the feet meet the ground, projecting itself at an evenly-paced cadence and speed absorbing the motion in the back and hindquarter, exhibiting the least amount of lateral and vertical movement possible and in a constant line without any up-and-down movement, making a comfortable ride for the equestrian and making both, horse and rider, seem as one melded entity controlled by the reins and the bit."

The reason fo reposting this is that if I insert the words "the speed of the rhythm" into the places where the word "cadence" is used, the definition does not fit. The sentence does not make sense using that definition. For example, "it is this even speed of the rhythm that is the basic characteristic of the Paso Fino gait..." does not make much sense. Continue inserting this definition every time that the word cadence is used and you will see that it does not make a whole lot of sense in the context of the paragraph. But if you instead use the word "time" or "timing", it fits. So, if one looks for the definition of the word "time" in the English language, this is what one finds when "time" is used as a noun:

Main Entry: 1time
Pronunciation: \ˈtīm\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English tīma; akin to Old Norse tīmi time, Old English tīd — more at tide
Date: before 12th century
1 a: the measured or measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues : duration b: a nonspatial continuum that is measured in terms of events which succeed one another from past through present to future c: leisure <time for reading>
2: the point or period when something occurs : occasion
3 a: an appointed, fixed, or customary moment or hour for something to happen, begin, or end <arrived ahead of time> b: an opportune or suitable moment <decided it was time to retire> —often used in the phrase about time<about time for a change>
4 a: a historical period : age b: a division of geologic chronology c: conditions at present or at some specified period —usually used in plural <times are hard><move with the times> d: the present time <issues of the time>
5 a: lifetime b: a period of apprenticeship c: a term of military service d: a prison sentence
6: season <very hot for this time of year>
7 a: rate of speed : tempo b: the grouping of the beats of music : rhythm
8 a: a moment, hour, day, or year as indicated by a clock or calendar <what time is it> b: any of various systems (as sidereal or solar) of reckoning time
9 a: one of a series of recurring instances or repeated actions <you've been told many times> bplural (1): added or accumulated quantities or instances <five times greater> (2): equal fractional parts of which an indicated number equal a comparatively greater quantity <seven times smaller> <three times closer> c: turn <three times at bat>
10: finite as contrasted with infinite duration
11: a person's experience during a specified period or on a particular occasion <a good time> <a hard time>
12 a: the hours or days required to be occupied by one's work <make up time> <on company time> b: an hourly pay rate <straight time> c: wages paid at discharge or resignation <pick up your time and get out>
13 a: the playing time of a game b: time-out 1
14: a period during which something is used or available for use <computer time>
— at the same time : nevertheless, yet <slick and at the same time strangely unprofessional — Gerald Weaks>
— at times : at intervals : occasionally
— for the time being : for the present
— from time to time : once in a while : occasionally
— in no time : very quickly or soon
— in time
1: sufficiently early
2: eventually
3: in correct tempo <learn to play in time>
— on time
1 a: at the appointed time b: on schedule
2: on the installment plan
— time and again : frequently, repeatedly

Please note number 7:

7 a: rate of speed : tempo b: the grouping of the beats of music : rhythm

And think about how this relates to the definition "the speed of the rhythm". Tempo. The grouping of the beats of music. Not the "speed" that we English speakers are thinking of. But rather what we would instead call "tempo". ANd I think we may indeed be of the same mind about the definition of the word "cadence". But then again, could be that I am just chasing fairies. Anyway, that is my latest contribution to the discussion. I will now go to yet another post in order to answer Becky's question.

grif

BigJ

Well, Cindy we need the Spanish version too, because it appears what has happened could be a mistranslation/meaning of a word.

"Cadencia" in the Spanish-English dictionary is translated literally to "cadence", which the English definition has been posted many times.

Again, I mean no offense by this; however, using "cadence" in English to explain "speed" is rather confusing. I'm not about to say "slow cadence" in English to mean a relative slower speed in foot fall. I'll replace it with another word that makes clearer sense. Or I will use it in context referencing the rhythm or beat of the gait. Now I have to wonder about the rest of the terms I'm familiar with.

No wonder we have problems in the breed. No wonder when there is a judge commentary at the end of the class and I listen to almost 5 minutes of explanation in Spanish, the USA judge says, "We were looking for paso; the horse that was more paso." Badda-boom. less than a second and we have the English translation. Like what the ????? Can't the guy at least explain it in English? Obviously not!!! Or how about the time the judge explained the whole class in Spanish and then said in English, "I won't take the time to repeat what I just said in Spanish." OK, so what does that mean? No words to explain it in English or it doesn't translate well or us English speakers aren't worth the effort for a class in an English speaking country where we are trying to promote the breed to English speaking spectators in an organization that is predominantly English speaking members.

I don't mind the comments in Spanish, look forward to them and don't care if they are translated. To be clear, none of those comments in English were said by guest judges or but by our own USA judges that knew better. It makes them look and sound stupid as if they can't begin to explain why a horse was placed and you know, maybe they can't because they are too scared to offend or appear dumb to ask how to correctly describe it. Maybe it should be a required class at the Judges and Stewards clinics because now I will be listening much more closely to Tobon's comments in English.

Geez, and we have more to go. I was discussing some terms from English to Spanish concerning the phrase "on the bit" or "in the bridle" and worse, how a horseman knows what those terms mean in English but some beginners may not and how to explain it without losing the meaning. There's a Spanish phrase that translates to "holding the bit" well fine try that phrase in English to horsemen and they will stare at you because that could mean something entirely different.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I was reading Cindy's comments about all this and tend to think it is the context of what we are describing to determine what meaning is used.

I use allot of terms in the musical sense: cadence, tempo, time, beat, measure, rhythm, harmony, synchronous, etc.

However some of those same terms are more related to physics: velocity, time, cadence, speed, symmetry, etc.

Again neither are right or wrong. There will be plenty of examples where both are right.

caliber · Site Admin

I also think it is very important to have an open mind when it comes to the language! I think communication is the MOST important factor in life!

In going back to the original question from Becky, she was also looking for the bilingual meaning for her questions!

As a retired musician....(Cello player), I learned the hard way..... I also noticed that the only way to communicate without an instrument was through learning the International SOLFEO!, besides A, B, C, D, E..

I thank everyone for being so cleared on their defenition! this is what Pasovoice is all about! SHARE, LEARN, TEACH and Listen for a better understanding of our breed...

Cindy, you are one of the BEST trainers we have in the USA, with not a dought..... and I can attest to that..... your knowledge, experience, and understanding the breed,...... sure, I will like to see you soon be a part of the INTERNATIONAL PASO WORLD! we need people like you.......so maybe one day soon you will deside to become a CONFEPASO Judge! again, we need you! .

when i says one of the BEST TRAINERS! among a hand full.
disclaimer: MY PERSONAL OPINION

pasosx3

Hey again, great discussion, eh? Nuances of language are difficult enough in a single language let alone when translating to other languages.

grif: Thanks for responding to me! I appreciate your info on 'impact". It seems like that word would also be appropriate as it relates to my original inquiry. It's interesting also to me that in your example, the terms cadence and impact are used separately but in the same sentence. So....perhaps "impact" and "galope/galopito" are the same thing, different languages? If so then, in English, would we say "the horse has an uneven impact with his foot"? Thanks!

pasosx3

One more thing: I want to applaud everyone for their passion in this discussion of terminology! On an International platform, because there are language differences (and maybe regional differences, too), it is important to have these discussions. It is also important to recognize there may be weaknesses in the quality of the different interpretations due to inadequate and/or incorrect translations and understandings. That is the reason I asked for the Judges terminology. I figured that there would be debate among us "common" folk, but I assumed that the Judges and Judging Forums had already worked these terms out. Perhaps they have in each of their own languages or countries, but maybe not among the other countries that don't share a common language. I can only imagine this discussion in German or Dutch or Swedish, etc.....

BigJ

Bravo! We need these discussions for many reasons. Surely we can reach a level of comfort where candid statements are not taken always in a negative context. Also, recognize some formality will sometimes appear distant and detached than meant.

grif

Uhg, communication, yes, very difficult persuit. And it seems that I have failed somewhat on one point. Candice, what I meant was not to reiterate the meaning of the word cadence in English. What I meant was that I think the meaning has been, as they say, lost in translation. I thought that my direction was easily followable but alas I have obviously left out a crucial ingredient to enable one to follow my thinking clearly. You see, the point of inserting the phrase "speed of rhythm" in the CONFEPASO rule book paragraph was to determine if how I, in English, see the term "speed of rhythm" in the context of where the word cadence would be found in a paragraph that I know was written by Spanish speaking people and then translated into English since it is the Spanish speaking people who call cadence the speed of the rhythm. When it did not make any sense, I tried to think of what would make sense in place of the word cadence in that paragraph. Going back to one of the definitions of cadence, we remember that the word "time" was used. Becky took this to relate to speed but I did not see it that way. I thought that the word "time" used in that definition had more to do with timing or the "speed" of the rhythm. Not speed like we think of when we say speed in relation to footfall. But rather speed as it relates to TIMING and rhythm. (boy, this is getting redundant. I will never, however, forget how to spell rhythm again) Like the timing of the beat of a song. It does not so much relate to how fast the song is going but it does in a way relate as in the tempo. So my conclusion is that the phrase "speed of the rhythm" is a literal translation from Spanish and not a true translation of the meaning of what they are saying and a truer to their meaning translation would be tempo. The whole speed thing having more to do with timing and rhythm than it does with fastness or quickness. I think that when they say "speed of the rhythm", we are thinking "quickness of footfall". And I think that we are thinking incorrectly. Though I have no idea if I am correct about this without hearing so from the other side which is why I asked the questions that I did and why I would have liked for them to be answered. It makes total sense to me though so I guess I can live with that.

grif

grif

Felix,

love ya babe. I was going to go to the clinic in Ocala but I guess they did not want me so they canceled the whole thing. Club

Yep, I am just that vain. lmfao