PasoVoice.Com :: What is the Judges' term for this.....

grif

Not sure that I agree with you there, Diego. From the Wbster's dictionary:

Main Entry: ca·dence
Pronunciation: \ˈkā-dən(t)s\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old Italian cadenza, from cadere to fall, from Latin — more at chance
Date: 14th century
1 a: a rhythmic sequence or flow of sounds in language b: the beat, time, or measure of rhythmical motion or activity
2 a: a falling inflection of the voice b: a concluding and usually falling strain; specifically : a musical chord sequence moving to a harmonic close or point of rest and giving the sense of harmonic completion
3: the modulated and rhythmic recurrence of a sound especially in nature
— ca·denced \-dən(t)st\ adjective
— ca·den·tial \kā-ˈden(t)-shəl\ adjective

I do not see anything in the definition of the word "cadence" that relates to speed or how many times per minute something occurs. In fact, there are different terms that mean that. Also, hitting harder on one or two legs than the other legs is NOT breaking gait. Any gait.

Here is what the Websters' thesaurus gives as a synonym to the word cadence:

Entry Word: cadence
Function: noun
Text: the recurrent pattern formed by a series of sounds having a regular rise and fall in intensity <the soothing cadence of the lecturer's voice nearly put me to sleep> — see rhythm

In Spanish, wouldn't the word "velocidad", velocity, be used more appropriately to describe the rapidity of footfall?

grif

Just for the record, I think the answer to the original question and the word that we all should be using is "impact". Horses should be equal in impact on all four legs. They also should have equal cadence and symmetry. Cadence being the rhythm of the sound and symmetry being the evenness of the movement of all four limbs.

pasosx3

Bravo: Thank you for the explanation of the term "galope/galopito" as it is used to describe a horse that is "over pounding" with one leg or another. I understand perfectly what you described and I agree that galopito is a great way to describe the "over pounding" of one hoof or another while the horse may or may not be in gait. It is exactly the sound (of the over pounding) I am referring to and it is very similar to the sound that I hear in the ca-TOR-ce of the Trote y Galope galope gait. It is a good descriptive term. I can certainly see myself using the phrase "The Paso Fino is in modality and has a nice cadence but he is a bit "galopito"". (I know the "a bit" is redundant, but in English, I think it works).

I have never heard the term galope/galopito used here in the USA in regards to a Paso Fino, so I wonder: Is this term a Regional term? Is it a term commonly used in South America? Would a latino from, say, Puerto Rico or Dominican Republic be accustomed to this term as you have used it?

By the way, I have absolutely no problem adopting a Spanish word to describe the "over pounding", after all, we use the Spanish words "corto", "largo", "fino", and "jaquima", "pisador", etc to describe other things in the Paso Horse world.

Thanks again!

Bravo

PasosX3: I am glad that you got the idea about the "galopito" for "over-pounding". You associated the word in Spanish "ca-TOR-ce" that is used to describe the sound of "Galope" with the louder sound produced by the hoof that is over-pounding.

By the way, I have heard the same word being used by Paso people from different Latin nationalities to describe this issue.

BigJ

I certainly have enjoyed this discussion. It appears we might have some basic understandings but how we describe it may be different based on language and use of terms.

Sounds to me (this is a pun) that we need to have some examples presented so that we can become more clear about what we are discussing. I know this is a risk to open up criticisms of a particular animal, however I suggest we try and focus only of the superior demonstration of the gait character and go no further.

Of course, we could simply buy some Merlot or Shiraz and discuss this over herb bread, fresh cheese and roasted beef.

I hope none of us are discouraged and the topic continues.

grif

Well, I gotta say that it the thread has turned into more of a lecture than a discussion. It would be nice to have questions answered and discussed but it seems to be a one way street. But just for the SAKE of discussion and that of coming to a common point of view if possible, here is how the PFHA rule book defines some of the terms used here that is if anyone cares about the CORRECT definitions:

Cadence- The rhythmic recurrence of a sound; the beat, time or measure of rhythmical activity.

Impact- The contacting or striking of the hoof to the ground.

Symmetrical- Affecting corresponding parts similarly; harmonious and balanced.

And, although the CONFEPASO rule book has no glossary, here is a paragraph in which the Paso Fino gait is described using the word "cadence" so that one can see how the word is used in the context of describing the gait:

"During this sequence, the pause between the strikes of the lateral and diagonal are equidistant. It is this even cadence that is the basic characteristic of the Paso Fino gait and that which distinguishes it from other gaits. Musical to the ear, it translates into rapid and equally spaced movements in a 1-2-3-4 cadence. When the horse is at its top performance, it seems unified and rhythmical, moving its legs smoothly and elastically as the feet meet the ground, projecting itself at an evenly-paced cadence and speed absorbing the motion in the back and hindquarter, exhibiting the least amount of lateral and vertical movement possible and in a constant line without any up-and-down movement, making a comfortable ride for the equestrian and making both, horse and rider, seem as one melded entity controlled by the reins and the bit."

So, there you go. For anyone interested in what the rule books say. I am done. See ya.

britzlove

How about some questions and thoughts from a complete amatuer? I was distracted and so far had missed really getting to read this thread.

I found the use of "galope" or "galopito" to describe two different things easy to understand, as there are many words in both Spanish and English that have different meanings based on context. May not be the clearest word that could be used, but I see the use of it.

I agree with Candice that I'd love to see some examples discussed, just as I saw at Mundial and have seen in many other shows (though on video, generally, you don't have the entire experience of live). I learn alot from this. I see the risk, and would personally say that here, on this list, any nasty criticism, not critical evalutation, would be deleted.

My questions would be,
Often I see horses on video that appear to be slow, and timid in the rear. The front seem to be fine, the front legs right and left have the same elevation, the same rythym, but the rear seem to hit lighter, not as much elevation, timidly placed, the only word I can find to say that, not placed with conviction rather just set there. I wish I could describe this better.

I see the same thing, where the rear seem to be driving, and placing with conviction, but the fore legs seem just set there, or set there without the same elevation, appearing slower to my eye (though it may not be the case).

So I wonder if somewhere in the above question this discussion can be applied?

BigJ

Bravo

Grif: The definitions that you posted are very clear.

Thank you.

britzlove

OK, I don't know how to talk about stiffness?

I would agree with you that plenty of times I don't see this faulted as I think it should be, because to me, it isn't in keeping with what we're supposed to experience with better perfoming horses.

I'm not a hundred percent sure you understood me correctly, not that you could, and that is why I'd wonder why we couldn't talk about examples. If I had a horse riding consistently right now, I'd offer it up for evaluation, but I don't.

Another way I might be able to say it is, I would call the horse dragging its hind or pushing a dead forehand. Maybe?

I am pretty sure we talked about another thing that shows up too much sometimes, at Mundial. I call it two-tracking, but I don't know if that's what it should be called for pasos. Seemingly in canter or trot with opposite ends, I know there's another term I was just thinking of but Hubby is running on at the mouth and I lost the thought.

BigJ

I think I do follow Britz...or not, but I still say most of this is caused by a brace and the front end is being caused by damage to the vertebrae, tendons, ligaments around the shoulder/neck tie in as a result of the fantasims of flexing. I have seen more and more problems to the front end that I didn't see years ago before the idea of flexing. The abuse of such an exercise really boils me.

I've begun a few casual discussions with others outside the breed to get feedback on my ideas about this and so far, no one has said that I'm too way off to think this is a problem.

Some of the rear end dragging is the same cause--a hollowness or brace in the vertebrae near the rear end. Dragging is an avoidance mechanism or a survival mechanism depending.

Well, I'll leave it at this or I'll begin my mantra about our judges needing to be taught by 4-H'ers again.

britzlove

LOL, well, I know the strength of 4-H judging programs and can't wait for my daughter to start this year.

Perhaps we need to have examples, I'll ask Sr. Felix.

ahhhm(clearing throat), Sr. Felix, what do you think?

pasosx3

I was away from my computer yesterday. Lots of discussion since then I see.

I had the privilege and honor of meeting yesterday an older long time Professional Trainer visiting from Puerto Rico. He has brought a horse from the Island for Spectrum. He only trains Paso Finos. He doesn't speak (or very little) English and I speak little Spanish, but we had a translator.

I asked him the exact same question as in my original post. He began answering by explaining what causes the "over pounding". I told him that I understand what may cause it, but I wanted to know specifically what it is called when the horse does it. He said "Decimos 'El caballo tiene un galope'". He also used the term galope!

I the asked him about cadence. He said, it (the over-pounding) has nothing to do with cadence. He said that cadence is the speed of the rhythm. He also said if the horse is out of cadence, out of rhythm, it is out of gait and should be disqualified. A horse that "tiene galope" is not necessarily out of gait.

He went on to say that another term for the over-pounding, or galope/galopito that he has heard used is the term "falsiendo". Does anyone want to comment on that?

Grif: You wrote the definitions below: (I apologize for not knowing how to Highlight the text that I am referring to--if anyone wants to PM me to explain how, I would appreciate it. LOL).

Cadence- The rhythmic recurrence of a sound; the beat, time or measure of rhythmical activity.

Impact- The contacting or striking of the hoof to the ground.

Symmetrical- Affecting corresponding parts similarly; harmonious and balanced.

I think, based on what you wrote, Cadence does refer to the rhythm, which is to say, the evenly spaced 4 beat gait of Paso Fino. And, if the horse is out of rhythym, it is out of gait. This is also consistent with what you posted from Confepaso, too. Confepaso uses the phrase "rapid and equally spaced" which I take to mean also the speed of footfalls. And, your (PFHA) definition of cadence does refer to the Speed of the footfalls when it uses the word "time or measure". Your Confepaso paragraph about cadence however says nothing about the "over pounding" of one hoof or another, so I conclude that they too believe that the "over-pounding" has nothing to with cadence either.

So, can we all finally agree that Cadence has nothing to do with the discussion of "over-pounding" or galope/galopito??????

grif: I think the term Impact is interesting however. When PFHA uses that term, how do they use it?

BigJ

Well, I'm still confused as to why speed terms aren't used for speed of cadence. You can have a horse that is very well candenced but not very fast. It is the rhythm not the speed that counts.

Kerry W · Site Admin

Ritmo also means tempo...and is on the judges card (see earlier post). It is a point of judgement. I think when we dissect words to the point of disagreement, that is what gets us in trouble. Many words have dual meanings in english/american and spanish. I only mention this to beg patience and understanding. I want people to feel free to share what is their reality, and not fear we are judging their system. That is the only way we can learn from one another, and that is the entire purpose of this forum.