PasoVoice.Com :: What is the Judges' term for this.....

pasosx3

I apologize in advance if this is a basic (stupid) question, but here goes:

A Paso Fino goes down the Sounding Board and he is in a 4 beat lateral gait which is correct, which I mean to say, that it is an evenly spaced 4 beat lateral gait.

Here is my question: What word or term do the Judges' use to describe the horse who does not strike the Sounding Board with an even power or strength of his legs or hooves? To me, it makes the horse sound "uneven" but I realized this is a misleading term because someone may interpret it to mean that the gait is not an evenly spaced 4 beat gait. So, what are the "correct" or "technical" terms for the uneven/unbalanced foot strikes? In both English and Spanish. Thank you.

Kerry W · Site Admin

I don't know...but you get 10 bonus points for the best question of the week! goodjob

BigJ

I don't what the judges call it but it's called cadence, which can refer to both the timing and harmonics.

Generally if the harmonics aren't even in sound, it suggests a lack of squareness due to many causes.

caliber · Site Admin

Great Question Becky!

Here is an example of Fedequinas/Confepaso Judging Chart:
In my opinion, the horses could be penalized for various thing.

Anterior or Posterior + Rythm, Cadence = -points

Tren Anterior o Tren Posterior + Ritmo, Cadencia, Suavidad en el Paso=
- puntos

English

Spanish

pasosx3

Thanks for responding Kerry W, Big J and Felix. Of course this bring up more questions and clarifications.

My biggest question before I ask any more questions: If the 4 beats are not evenly spaced, is this horse considered "not in modality"? And, excuseable (from the Ring)?

grif

I guess that would depend on who you are asking. Perhaps some of the CONFEPASO judges can answer in regard to CONFEPASO judging. As far as PFHA judging, no, the horse would not be excused for being out of gait. However, it should be penalized for poor cadence and marked down. Should be. But I saw a horse win many National titles last year who was so heavy on the forehand that you could not from a distance hear four beats at all. You could only hear the fronts. And he is a National Champion. Rolling Eyes

BigJ

It depends. If the horse is stepping heavier or lighter due to lameness, then yes it should be excused.

Sometimes out of cadence is caused by mechanics where a foot is moving higher or lower. This is a fault. This could be caused by natural tendencies or influenced by training.

Sometimes the horse may not be out of gait at all. The rhythm is a very good 1-2-3-4, there may be no perceptible difference in animation, mechanics, etc. but the horse is still slightly heavy or light in one foot. This could be caused by a slight stiffness somewhere, say in the back, shoulder, neck, hip, or by a handiness--say left handed or right handed.

Usually handiness comes in twos. If a horse is lighter in the front left, chances are good he's heavier on another foot. It could be on the same side or not depending on his comfort.

As Cindy mentioned, the worst is when a horse is out of balance and very heavy or light footed. I don't mean out of gait. Recall our paso gait is about being square in all ways besides the 1-2-3-4 beat. That means the horse should look, sound, feel even in all directions.

Originally the board was used for either very close competitions where the horses appeared very balanced and in gait to decipher their cadence or to determine if a horse was "off".

If you watch the youtube video of Consentida de Amor, she is very nicely cadenced, but she is still not perfect. We also can't forget that not only is the gait ideally balanced but it must be expressed with beauty and grace. So a horse slightly out of cadence but expressing the gait in a way very pleasing to the eye and ear and feel could win over one who is more cadenced but hard on the eyes and rough to feel.

EDIT: I should add about the mechanics that it isn't always about height, but flight too. Horses that are more/less crooked in their legs will also hit softer or heavier. Anything that changes how a foot might take off, land or move while in the air could affect cadence. While most faults are in the flight of the foot or landing, I have seen off cadence by how a foot takes off too.

jorge torres

buenas noches,

la falta de sostenimiento en un caballo, lo penaliza. si la falta es muy continua se puede descalificar.

el cambio de modalidad si descalifica.

esto es tanto en fedequinas como en confepaso.

la cadencia es la velocidad del ritmo. la elevacion y la rapidez son heredados.
existen muchos casos en los cuales los caballos no marcan con claridad el andar o paso, esto puede ser por malos aplomos o mal arreglo de la boca.

jorge torres

Translation:

the absence to sustain in a horse, will be penalized. if the absence to sustain continues, could even lead to disqualified the horse.

When not in gait, yes, it will be disqualified

This goes for Fedequinas and Confepaso

the cadence is the speed of the rhythm. the elevation and the rapidity are inherited.

there exist many cases in which the horses do not mark with clarity the gait , this can be due to poor balance through trimming or shoeing, or bad arrangement of the mouth. (bitting)

pasosx3

Thank you everyone for replying. I appreciate your input in helping me to understand terms and definitions in the Judging and observation and descriptions of the paso fino gait.

OK. Let me see if I understand correctly what I am reading.

1. If the horse is unable to sustain an isochronic 4 beat gait (an evenly spaced 4 beat gait), it may or not get disqualified in a PFHA Show however it would count as a "fault" and be penalized. But this same horse would get disqualified in a Fedequinas/Confepaso Show because it would be considered "out of gait" and therefore disqualified? Is that what I am reading?

Also, I do want to clarify that my original post assumed an isochronic 4 beat gait. My question was, what do we call it when the feet strike the ground with different intensities. (I am not concerned at this point about why this may happen because that is an entire discussion on its own). I am interested in the vocabulary of the judges (or trainers, etc).

So, let me see if I understand the responses so far.

2. The terms "cadence", "clarity", "heaviness or lightness in a hoof", "out of balance" and "inability to sustain the gait" have all been used. If I understand correctly then, it seems that PFHA MIGHT count this as a fault and that Fedequinas/Confepaso DOES count it as a fault and penalizes it. It seems that PFHA would NOT disqualify a horse that performed in this manner (unless it was lame), but Fedequinas/Confepaso WOULD disqualify a horse that performed this way in a sustained manner. Is this correct?

3. Now, I am still confused about the terms cadence and clarity. Can they be used interchangeably?

Thank you again everyone for your comments. Sr Torres and Felix, thank you for giving the answers in Spanish, too. Sometimes I find that the Spanish terms are more exact and succinct than the English terms.

Bravo

In order to answer the question at this point of the discussion, I consider very important to clarify some terms about gaits:

RHYTHM (in Paso Fino gait) is the "evenly alternated four beat gait". If the horse breaks the rhythm, he is out of gait and should be penalized in any competition (CONFEPASO, PFHA, FEDEQUINAS, GRADPRIX, ATTA shows, etc.). Paso horses are judged for proper gait, which is the most important characteristic of these amazing breeds.

CADENCE is the speed of the rhythm. This means that the horse with a more animated sound on the board has a greater cadence. For instance, Classic Finos have the greatest cadence in the Paso Fino breed and, at the same time, the shortest extension of the steps that is needed to have that animated cadence. So, the original question has nothing to do with cadence.

A horse that hits the ground stronger with one leg can be in gait, but is "over-pounding" with such a leg. The expression used in Spanish is "el caballo tiene un galope (o galopito) en la extremidad...(say the leg)" (that translates into English as "the horse has a galope in the ...(say the leg)"). This can occur when the horse is pulling more on one side of the reins, having unbalanced hooves/shoes, being in pain on that leg (in any place from hoof to shoulder or hip), uneven landing on the opposite leg that sounds louder, Stringhalt syndrome, even as a vice developed due to one of the reasons above.

Although the term SYMMETRY makes reference to the four hooves reaching the same distance and the two front or two hind legs having the same elevation and advance, the judges may use the expression "lack of symmetry" ("falta de simetria") for a horse "over-pounding" with one leg.

grif

Symmetry may indeed be a better word for it. However, would it be applicable if visually the symmetry of the horse was accurate but the horse sounds louder on either the front or the hind? Or would you term it something else? As the word symmetry is generally used to indicate the visual impression as opposed to the auditory perception, is it not? And would you term it differently if it was only one leg (as that is what you have described) as opposed to either both hinds or both fronts?

pasosx3

Thank you Bravo for responding!

I must say that when I posted the question, I really did believe that it was a simple question with a simple answer however, based on the replies, I see that it is not so simple after all. I had assumed that the Judges and Trainers had a "common" term and vocabulary for describing what I was inquiring about. It seems that the Latins have perhaps a better vocabulary for it?

Bravo: When you use the term "galope" in your response, is it in regards to the verb galopar which can refer to haste, or speed, or hurriedly, speedily? I assume you are not referring to the galope or canter that we use to describe the Trote y Galope.

Anyway, I like your explanation of cadence. It is similar to what Sr Torres wrote and similar to the definition in the dictionary as well.

I wish there were a better term than "over pounding" however although it is descriptive. Symmetry seems to be a correct term as you describe it although it too could be confused with reference to the visual symmetry as grif pointed out in that post.

I think confusion happens too when we watch and listen at the same time. That is one reason why I sometimes turn my head away in order to concentrate on "hearing"' the gait. I too believe the sound or "music" of the gait is the most important thing. All else is secondary in my opinion.

My husband, a musician, suggested to me the term Intonation to refer to the "over pounding". What does everyone think of that term????

BigJ · Last edited by BigJ on Fri May 02, 2008 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

I think of symmetry akin to equal or balanced.

I don't think the terms are independent. A well-cadenced horse is also very well balanced, symmetrical, even, has clarity, etc. However, I tend to agree with Cindy's points. I have seen horses that visually appear symmetrical that were not as cadenced as others when on the sounding board. I believe Bravo mentioned horses that sound louder or quieter in a foot.

A horse out of cadence is generally also out of balance, assymetrical, etc. and can be discerned through various tests not only the sounding board.

Borrowing again from a dictionary

1 a: a rhythmic sequence or flow of sounds in language b: the beat, time, or measure of rhythmical motion or activity
2 a: a falling inflection of the voice b: a concluding and usually falling strain; specifically : a musical chord sequence moving to a harmonic close or point of rest and giving the sense of harmonic completion
3: the modulated and rhythmic recurrence of a sound especially in nature

I use cadence more as in the case of #2 where there is a difference in inflection of the footfall or in the case of #3 when discussing the complete sequence of gait.

Whereas I can see the use of the term to mean a type of rhythym or speed. For me, when I mean speed, I say something like fast or slow.

It would be nice to see an example of these definitions so that we could all be clear on the meanings.

EDIT: I want to thank Dr. Torres and Diego Bravo for helping us to undertand the paso fino terms. Also to apologize for my persistence to the point of being a pest. The discussions are so important so that we find a common ground of understanding and so that we can properly introduce the breed in other countries.

grif

Bravo

That is right. The term "galope" (or "galopito") used in Spanish to say that a leg is "over-pounding" is not related to the gait "Galope" (canter) or faster speed. It is related to the greater strength of that leg to hit the ground that, although the four beats sound evenly alternated, the sound is not as clear due to the louder sound produced by the leg "over-pounding".

The reason to use the word "galope" (or "galopito") in order to say that there is a leg that sounds louder, comes from a similar sound produced by a horse in "Galope" (canter). Galope is a three beat gait, in which the first sound is produced when a hind leg hits the ground, the second sound (the loudest one) is produced by the other hind leg and its opposite front leg when they hit the ground at the same time (two legs sound louder than one), and the third sound is produced by the remaining front leg (the opposite to the first hind leg).

I agree that SYMMETRY is related to the visual movement but not to the sound. That is why I said before that, although it is not the best word to use, some judges may use this to describe the issue of a horse over-pounding with one leg.

Note: I want to insist that a horse "over-pounding" with one leg has nothing to do with CADENCE. The term CADENCE has been misussed in both Spanish (the word is CADENCIA) and English, while refering to gait. The only meaning of CADENCE (Cadencia) is SPEED OF THE RHYTHM or FREQUENCE, or "How many times the horse's hooves hit the ground in a period of time (let's say in a minute)." This has nothing to do with breaking gait (any gait: Paso Fino, Trocha, Trote, Galope).