Wow, lots to comment on. It always amazes me how much alike our theories are.
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As you know, Cindy, I really believe in the Resorte IV/RIII blends with Classico and the overall blend of Resortes with Chucuanos/Pistolero and or Confidente thrown in the mix. I've seen a few Chucuano/Bochica only inbred horses. I'm not sure what to think about them. Their production wasn't what I expected, but then my subjectivity suggests they would have done well with RIV horses. What I've seen most were crossed differently.
Agreed. I have seen it too. The Chucuano/Bochica only horses seem somehow weak. But if you throw a bit of Resorte IV in the mix they produce good, strong horses.
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I remember Zapata very well as a colt and young stallion. I'm just now researching the Bochica Tres horses with greater depth. Shame I didn't stay in California long enough to get to know Bochia Tres' production better.
So, you have been watching me for a long time. I fell in love with Bochica Trea at the Classic in Dallas before I moved to California. He was not long in this country and his balance and harmony were amazing. Later he tended to go with his nose too high and not really driving off the rear as well as he could. But at that particular show he was aces. And all the big boys were there as well.
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Interesting you should mention Zapata as a mare producer. I'm been trying to look more into sons of RIV mares. Some weird idea I have about mares by a prepotent sire line...not worth discussing.
That was a roundabout, but going back to Delirio III and Dorotea de Prodeco, Santa Humo was a really nice Bochica Tres horse out of Dorotea. Very nice cross. He was quiet like the Bochica traits I liked by had a little more energy. Too bad we lost him too.
Bochica Tres was also a mare producer. He had many good mares but his colts were most often geldings. Zapata and Santo Humo were really the only breeding colts that I ever saw from him. I always thought that Santo and Zapata were very much the same. Same basic conformation, same basic movement and same good temperament. You could really see the similar breeding there. And, yes, it is too bad that he left us so soon.
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Well darn I just checked the PFHA CD and Royal Oak Dinero is deceased!!!
I had not heard that. I wonder what happened. Maybe I will ask Rick the next time I see him.
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I was a HUGE proponent of gelding everything in sight, but I have begun to rethink that attitude. I have seen tremendous mares by stallions I didn't consider masculine enough or powerful enough or whatever machismo superlative I tended to judge a stallion by. I'm not talking about colts which obviously lack qualities, but the ones who are very nicely bred, very nice traits, have an overall quality about them but are not outstanding individuals. I've seen short periods of time where our stallions are rather oh-hum and it is their daughters that carry the breed.
I agree entirely. And, yes, Zapata was one of those horses. He was a very good, very solid animal. But as far as stallions go, he was not terribly strong in physical stature. In fact, many people used to ask me about my black mare. But in this breed we have a lot of very masculine mares and he was a great cross with them. Also, we have a lot of mares who have a lot of brio, sometimes too much, and he was a good cross with them as well to put a good mind on the babies. I think it is very important that we look at the actual horses that we are breeding. Not just at how they work under saddle or how well they do in the show ring. But at the actual horses. And, Candice, I know of course that you do this to the extreme. But I think that there are a lot of people breeding our horses out there who do not. They only look at how the horses compete. They really don't even ever look at the horses without a saddle to evaluate them. And I think that is going to be very harmful to us if it has not already.
Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:46 pm
BigJ
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 1038
grif wrote:
Wow, lots to comment on. It always amazes me how much
Ditto
grif wrote:
Agreed. I have seen it too. The Chucuano/Bochica only horses seem somehow weak. But if you throw a bit of Resorte IV in the mix they produce good, strong horses.
Yes, I had to make a HARD decision about pursuing Chucuano horses because I plan to have so much of the Bochica and not use RIV right now, but other lines. It's hard to stay focused when I see tremendous horses offering allot and very attractive. A crop or two and then begin outcrossing--that 3rd generation goal.
Now there is Premier de Chapiro that is a very interesting horse to me. He has allot of good traits of the chucuano inbreeding--even the rumored temperament, which I don't listen too much. Once again, Chapiro left few sons....
The TB breeding theorists tend to define some traits as "recessive" meaning both genetically and as a trait "weakness". However I don't necessarily subscribe to this entirely. These horses may not provide the prepotency that we normally attribute to dominant traits, but I still think they do provide what I call the "little essentials". While the traits may appear recessive (weak) and undesirable in the classical breeding sense, they are great sources for the finer, subtler points needed for a horse to be great rather than just average.
grif wrote:
So, you have been watching me for a long time. I fell in love with Bochica Trea at the Classic in Dallas before I moved to California. He was not long in this country and his balance and harmony were amazing. Later he tended to go with his nose too high and not really driving off the rear as well as he could. But at that particular show he was aces. And all the big boys were there as well.
Well, I have been around for a while and about...I'm a people and horse watcher. I liked Bochia Tres' look and his balance. Since I'm trying to drag out the Eblis too, I've corresponded with a breeder or two in Colombia that really like the Eblis with Rey Cometa. That's way back there on most horses, but I've got a living line of Eblis so Bochia Tres kinda works on that. The lack of consistent drive in the rear is the problem I see mostly.
grif wrote:
I agree entirely. And, yes, Zapata was one of those horses. He was a very good, very solid animal. But as far as stallions go, he was not terribly strong in physical stature. In fact, many people used to ask me about my black mare. But in this breed we have a lot of very masculine mares and he was a great cross with them. Also, we have a lot of mares who have a lot of brio, sometimes too much, and he was a good cross with them as well to put a good mind on the babies. I think it is very important that we look at the actual horses that we are breeding. Not just at how they work under saddle or how well they do in the show ring. But at the actual horses. And, Candice, I know of course that you do this to the extreme. But I think that there are a lot of people breeding our horses out there who do not. They only look at how the horses compete. They really don't even ever look at the horses without a saddle to evaluate them. And I think that is going to be very harmful to us if it has not already.
LOL! Yes Zapata was a tad feminine but I still liked him. Yet, we have had many stallions who would keep him company! I have a colt now that is like that. Really his full sister should have been the stallion! Big, bold, dominant, aggressive, confident, a leader, built like a brick house. Instead I get a cross-gender thing going on. The colt now 3 is just now beginning to use his rear end and look like a male horse instead of some transvestite. I'm always 50/50 on this guy about liking what I see or disappointed. I wish I could make my mind up.
Worse, my stallion is one of the few direct male lines of Postin and out of one of the rare direct female lines of Eblis. So I've got a dilemma with a rare male line and a rare female line to work with. Trying to figure out how to preserve not necessarily a particular horse but the general qualities these lines represent has turned me into a fanatic. So this cutesy, lady-like colt is a bit of a challenge to me. Fortunately I like masculine mares, so maybe it will be worth a risk to keep him around as a stallion. It would be an easier decision if the set of horses had more producing males. Petrolero is the only direct son of Postin producing. Patrullero one of the few producing grandsons and I have his only son producing right now who is busy producing fillies.
In all honesty, really, this task shouldn't belong to me but to someone with the means to do it justice. Damn shame is all I'll say.
But then when I think about what that means---after all. Now DJ imported a bunch of Eblis mares, so?? But I've hunted down all the Eblis horses too and the mares were mare producers, the stallions nothing great and their daughters way better than their sons. Then's there the Bochica line the likes to dip down to the bottom, so should I expect the males to be eye poppers? When one does come along that is--look at his dam. She may not be an eye popper either but she must have something to be able to pull that sire side back up to the top line. Overall when I look at the numbers alone, it is amazing how these stallions produce more mares than colts. It's astounding to see. It's not just these specific horses either.
There are lines that when a stallion producer does show up again, he is in the midst of female siblings and is producing mostly mares--good ones. So this one itty, bitty male, maybe not the best of sire lines, yet one of the few sires coming up through a daughter of a sire, might have more to offer than what he shows us.
Some of these lines seem to be late maturing and in the world today, few are going to have an opportunity to remain whole before they grow up. They may not show a dang thing until they are 5, 7 or older and then maybe after a mare is bred or two or under saddle for several years.
So, yeah, I think we've got to be more open to using stallions who fly a little off target and under the radar. Their daughters serve the breed well and while the sons aren't consistently as good, when one does show up that has everything, is solid in all ways even if you yawn over it, we need to use them.
OK, I'm an obsessive, compulsive! LOL! It's a survival, self-defense thing gong on.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Once again, we digress, but to put this in perspective with Delirio who is represented mostly by mares EXCEPT for perhaps El Duende who is Delirio and Mahoma. Now El Duende was a hell of a horse. Of the group there is Misterio de Besilu. Again, mostly geldings from El Duende and the few mares and stallions are used lightly. Misterio is 20! Geez, I remember him as a colt.
Delirio has two sons to represent him in the USA and only Dandy produced one male.
Once again, the stallions aren't used or used very lightly. Only Misterio has produced any quantity of offspring. It's another line going extinct in the USA.
Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:58 pm
grif
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 170
I just had a thought when I read what you said about the El Duende line going extinct. Here is how the thought came to be. I have a client who has a daughter of Misterio and she has a son of her and Turista that we are showing this year. So my thought was, "We still see these lines. But we see them in the mares who are being bred as opposed to in the stallions who are being bred." And then I thought back to our the conversation about stallions producing more good mares than good stallions. And my thoughts then went to "Perhaps we produce better mares because the mares that we breed have more diversity in their lines than do the stallions." To understand this you must understand my theory that the male lines in a breeding have greater effect on the males horses produced and the female lines in a breeding have more influence on the female horses produced. I think these observations help to prove that this theory has some base.
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:41 am
BigJ
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 1038
Good thoughts Cindy!
This a favorite subject of mine so I posted a response separately to keep this one on Delirio. He deserves the attention.
Ohhhh head ache of headache's. Thanks though. I can't believe it's so hard to figure this all out!
I have found many similar combinations though, that appear to have enough in common with him.
I'm off to see if I can find a picture of her stallion now.
I just know there has to be some close offspring in Colombia, I just know there is.
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:26 pm
britzlove
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 433
Location: Indiana
Well, I havent found pics not any of Turabo, though I found a daughter and mention of him in text.
However, thanks so much for making to go to the Micheletti's website, forgot to put my drool drop cloth down though..now there's drool everywhere!
Hehe, I think that I have enjoyed visiting that sight the most since I discovered the breed. I had the opportunity to thank her at Mundial for providing me so joy! (Carmen I mean)
Turabo
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:06 pm
BigJ
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 1038
I'm sure Cristy has some pics of Turabo.
But if you mean Tornado, I might ask a friend of mine who has a very nice son by him.
_________________ Be the change you want to see in the world. Gandhi
Is it too much to hope that at some point the PFHA will make public the photos that you send for registering your horse? Granted, most of them will be immature hairy little juvenile delinquents (like mine), but it would still be interesting to see the common characteristics that transmit from particular stallions and mares. Seems like it would be easier to do with digital photos and all. And since you all seem to have infected me with some kind of weird bloodline researching bug (Eblis strain), it would help in doing the phenotype research.
_________________ Proudly standing Juan Miguel del Prado
(Nevado x Margarita del Prado)
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:50 pm
caliber
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 2853
Location: Paso World
You have great point! I remember, dont know if still happening! the Puerto Rican Federation included the picture of the horses in the registry. But also like to see the young pictures, like you said, alot cold come from it.
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I fell in love with Bochica Trea at the Classic in Dallas before I moved to California. He was not long in this country and his balance and harmony were amazing. Later he tended to go with his nose too high and not really driving off the rear as well as he could. But at that particular show he was aces. And all the big boys were there as well.
I had not heard that. I wonder what happened. Maybe I will ask Rick the next time I see him.
But in this breed we have a lot of very masculine mares and he was a great cross with them. Also, we have a lot of mares who have a lot of brio, sometimes too much, and he was a good cross with them as well to put a good mind on the babies. I think it is very important that we look at the actual horses that we are breeding. Not just at how they work under saddle or how well they do in the show ring. But at the actual horses. And, Candice, I know of course that you do this to the extreme. But I think that there are a lot of people breeding our horses out there who do not. They only look at how the horses compete. They really don't even ever look at the horses without a saddle to evaluate them. And I think that is going to be very harmful to us if it has not already.
