PasoVoice.Com :: Standard Characteristics of ELEVATIONS

caliber · Site Admin

Here is the Chart that Angela Ochoa is talking about

Fedequinas Judging Chart

Fenotipo:

Conjunto de aspectos que hacen referencia a la conformación física de cada caballo.

•Aplomos: Líneas verticales que se deben evaluar en los miembros de soporte del ejemplar. Se evalúan en movimiento y apoyo.

•Color: Conjunto de la caracterización cromática en la capa que cubre la piel, incluidas crines y cola, cara cuerpo y extremidades. Colores básicos: Negro, Castaño, zaino, alazán, Moro y bayo. Secundarios: Cervuno, rosillo, ruano cisne.

Phenotype:

Set of aspects that reference the physical conformation of every horse.

•Composures: Vertical lines that must be evaluated in the members of support of the horse. They are evaluated in movement and support.

•Color: Set of the chromatic characterization in the layer that covers the skin, includes mane and tail, face, body and extremities. Basic colors: Black, red bay, black bay, chestnut, grey and buckskin. Secondary: Deer colored, bay roan, roan swan.

Adiestramiento:

Se define como tal la educación recibida por el caballo para responder a las órdenes de su jinete con prontitud y mansedumbre.

•Sostenimiento: Constancia con la cual el ejemplar ejecuta su ritmo con la misma y mejor cadencia por el mayor tiempo posible.

•Rienda: Facilidad de dirigir al ejemplar a través del freno o embocadura, en cualquier sentido con apoyo suave, llevando el montador sus manos juntas. Se entiende estas ordenes deben producirse con la mayor suavidad y respeto por el ejemplar.

•Posición de cabeza: Máxima expresión de elegancia y naturalidad del conjunto cabeza cuello Lo mas cercano a la vertical con respecto al suelo.

Training:

The education for the horse is defined as such to answer to the orders of his rider with eager willingness and docility.

•Support: Consistency with which the horse executes his rhythm with the best cadence in the best possible tempo.

•Rein: Facility of directing the horse with soft support, through the rider's hands. These orders must take place with the greatest gentleness and respect for the horse.

•Position of head: Maximum expression of elegance and naturalness of the joint of head and neck (poll) the nearest thing to being vertical with the ground.

Movimientos:

•Tren anterior: es el conjunto de formado por los dos miembros anteriores o brazos del ejemplar.
Se evalúan los componentes de energía y elasticidad como factor de avance suavidad para cada uno de los andares que conforman el Caballo Criollo Colombiano.

•Tren posterior: Es el conjunto formado por los dos miembros posteriores o patas del ejemplar.
El tren anterior guardará armonía con el tren posterior. Se evaluarán los componentes de elasticidad, energía, equilibrio, balance como factor de impulso y suavidad para cada uno de los andares que conforman el Caballo Criollo Colombiano.

•Quietud de anca: Expresa la serenidad y estabilidad del anca tanto vertical como horizontal.

•Suavidad: Serenidad y comodidad con la cual el ejemplar trasporta su jinete. Es la más relevante cualidad de los diferentes andares colombianos.

•Ritmo: Proporción guardada entre el tiempo de un movimiento y el de otro diferente.

•Cadencia: Velocidad del ritmo. Representada en número de batidas por unidad de tiempo.

•Brío: Energía de carácter genético y condición innata de responder al estímulo.

•Temperamento: Expresión del carácter o genio como factor genético, se manifiesta con el comportamiento y se moldea con buen manejo.

•Armonía: Es la mejor expresión visual sonora. Es el equilibrio dado entre la mejor expresión de fenotipo, comportamiento y movimiento del ejemplar.

Movements:

•Anterior Train: it is the movement of the front legs of the horse.
Here we evaluate the components of energy and elasticity and smoothness for each of the gaits that shape the CCC.

•Posterior Train: It is the movement of the rear legs of the horse.
The front leg movements will keep harmony with the rear leg movements. Here we evaluate the components of elasticity, energy, balance, balance as a factor of impulsion and smoothness for each of the gaits that shape the CCC.

•Quietness of Croup: It expresses the serenity and stability of the croup, both vertically and horizontally.
•Smoothness: Serenity and comfort with which the horse transports his rider. It is the most excellent quality of the different Colombian gaits.

•Rhythm: Proportion kept between the time of one movement to the next.

•Cadence: Speed of the rhythm. Represented by the number of footfalls for a unit of time.

•Brio: Energy of genetic character and innate condition to respond to the stimulus.

•Temperament: Expression of the character or genius as genetic factor, it demonstrates with the behavior and is molded by good handling.

•Harmony: Is the best resounding visual expression. It is the balance given among the best expression of phenotype, behavior and movement of the horse.

caliber · Site Admin

Bump!

BigJ

Thank you Kerry, Felix and Angela for sharing this article.

I'll preface my statments with the hope that I can be myself here and provide candid, although sometimes, awkward thoughts as I am still trying to learn about the paso horses.

The article has provided more questions that answers for me. It seems to have been written for an audience already familiar with the other Colombian modalities, which I am not. I'm afraid that some of my interpretation is lacking a true comprehensive foundation in order to respond in that context.

One comment that caught my eye and I'd love to someone who knows these modalities to respond about how by deviating from the ideal elevations may change the conformation therefore the phenotype desired. I'd like to know if I have understood this correctly and if so how this statement is incoroprated into prepetuating the differing modalities.

Unfortunately as many Colombians who I know are in the USA and as many who I know read such forums as PasoVoice, I've yet to meet anyone willing to teach a person like me what the goals are for the TYG and Trochadors. All these years and I'm still left having to search through the chaff left overs to find a tidbit worth keeping.

With that, I'm going to set aside this subject for another day until I'm better acquainted with the modalities discussed. I'm extremely uncomfortable with sharing any further thoughts on this until I have a better understanding.

Bottom line: I am as confused as ever by these elevation standards. How did they come about? Who developed them? Why are they important? How much influence does it have with showing or breeding? Do the Colombian breeders, trainers, exhibiters, spectators, agree? What were or are the alternative thoughts on this? Was there a debate, opposition, or an enmass agreement to this goal and why?

caliber · Site Admin

Candice Burger Quoted:
Thank you Kerry, Felix and Angela for sharing this article.

The article has provided more questions that answers for me. It seems to have been written for an audience already familiar with the other Colombian modalities, which I am not. I'm afraid that some of my interpretation is lacking a true comprehensive foundation in order to respond in that context.

One comment that caught my eye and I'd love to someone who knows these modalities respond was about how by deviating from the ideal elevations may change the conformation therefore the phenotype desired. I'd like to know if I have understood this correctly and if so how this statement is incoroprated into prepetuating the differing modalities.

Unfortunately as many Colombians who I know are in the USA and as many who I know read such forums as PasoVoice, I've yet to meet anyone willing to teach a person like me what the goals are for the TYG and Trochadors. All these years and I'm still left having to search through the chaff left overs to find a tidbit worth keeping.

I'm extremely uncomfortable with sharing any further thoughts on this until I have a better understanding.

Bottom line: I am as confused as ever by these elevation standards. How did they come about? Who developed them? Why are they important? How much influence does it have with showing or breeding? Do the Colombian breeders, trainers, exhibiters, spectators, agree? What were or are the alternative thoughts on this? Was there a debate, opposition, or an enmass agreement to this goal and why?
QUOTE:

Felix Response:

Candice, you have very good points, I don’t think in GENERAL no one will agree that elevation can determine a modality or ever will.
I also have plenty of questions in reference to that, in speaking with Angela, an others, we all agree on ONE THING, if the horse is doing a perfect gait in which ever modality…. then, elevations really will not be the focus point of determination.

With all due respect, at the moment I have to say, I found myself disagreeing with many STATEMENTS from where this context came from (book).

My appreciations to Angela Ochoa for the information shared!

Kerry W · Site Admin

From what I gathered from the article, the elevation is only given a small percentage of weight, in the overall presentation of the horse in the show ring.

In the statement that you referred to, Candice...Angela pointed out the falsehood of the statement, because when you look at the overall picture of the horse, elevation does not weigh that much. The statement made, let the reader believe that pinning a horse with less than "perfect" elevation, would confuse breeders, which would change the face of the breed, by encouraging them to breed for the incorrect elevation standard. Being that elevation does not carry that much weight, she felt that the statement was erroneous...that most breeders aim for overall quality, and are not quite that focused on elevation alone.

As Britz surmised, the photos of the elevations, are what is considered "average" for the different modalities. After studying the different modalities, these are the elevations that they found to be the most common representations of elevation for their respective modalities.

BigJ

I understand Felix and Kerry. I agree with Angela on the role elevations play overall--very little when all else is correct and very little if other greater issues are not.

I'm trying to be considerate and respectful, but my curiousity is about to take over. I'm curious about why such a subject or attempt at even bringing about a standard was done. Whether I agree or not is less the issue than me trying to understand why even bring the subject up in the first place. Was it an attempt to provide guidance to "fix" phenotype in the modalities or to encourage a general guideline for judges? I am interested in how other fellow Colombians think about this either way. Maybe there is some information here that is useful even if there is no agreement on the topic in general.

This is only my observations but the paso fino horse benefits in other countries because it is discussed and carefully researched unlike here in the USA where a horse is nothing more than a hobby or a babysitter. Our discussions about horses in this country, well frankly, are lacking in depth. We debate rather simple things that are so obvious and so well accepted by any other paso fino community. So we do miss out on many, many conferences and other events were very serious discussions about breed development, policy, etc, are presented. I have no bearing and am trying to find a reference point that I understand to get the topic in focus.

A background about where I'm coming from on all of this:
I've been reading with interest all the theories about how phenotype affects gait. For the record, I do not agree with this and I base my opinion on observation. Although some angles and some phenotypic feature "may" play a role when all else is equal, normally it does not have a greater influence than genetics. In other words, either a horse has inherited the genes to gait whatever modality it was bred for or it doesn't. Yes, there is a phenotype that goes along with this but that has more to do with how the modality is expressed.

I certainly did not agree with some comments about how the croup angle affected rear end mechanics for gait. Mechanics, perhaps, but not gait. They are not synonymous. I did not agree that a trochador had to have certain angles to be trocha and a paso others to be paso. Dr. Torres' study helped to prove my thoughts on this. I'm still trying to get a copy of that study by the way. A flatter croup doesn't make a horse better gaited any more than a more sloping one. There's too many variables and too many, probably polychromosomal, expressions that demonstrate this to be untrue. Yet, I have read several articles that promote this idea as a truism.

So, back to this elevation standard. What I am trying to understand is what is prompting such standards to be defined like shoulder angles, croup angles, etc.? All I have is some heresay about how there have been discussions about trying to fix and purify the modalities and phenotype of Colombian horses. Did this approach stem from this or from something that I have not been exposed to?

Sorry, this is so long, as I have many questions and want to assure everyone I am trying to understand the reasoning behind the standards. I recall when the cattle industry attempted to make standards like this for phenotype, which were abandoned when it became evident it was impractical and sometimes detrimental. However, the attempt was meant to give breeders and the cattle industry a cow that would provide a consistent product using simple metrics to base their decisions.

grif

Candice, in the "From the center of the ring" newsletter that was just e-mailed to us Bobby included a note at the end that DVDs are available with the information discussed during both Dr. Torres' and Angela Ocho's presentations. Contact the PFHA office for a copy.

BigJ

Thanks Cindy,

Do you know if it includes the presentations from the J&S clinic in 2007? They are the ones I'm intersted in. Dr. Torres presented a topic based on some research he had done in Colombia trying to correlate angles/phenotype to gait. I think he published the paper as well but I'm not sure. If I knew the journal that the paper was published I might be able to get a copy through the university system here or at least try.

The presentation at the J&S clinic had a table summary of statistical results from the study. I was interested in looking at the actual data and the statics from the original study.

Also Derek made a presentation about the croup movement that I thought was also very enlightening.

I also want to clarify a statement I made earlier

Kerry W · Site Admin

From Angela Ochoa on elevation:

Lo importante que los jueces deben evaluar con respecto al punto de la elevacion en el paso fino es la naturalidad, esto es mas importante que lo media o baja que pueda ser. Solo la elevacion natural se puede convertir en una condicion hereditable, la elevacion baja que no es natural y que se da como resultado de caballos que se trabajan sin herrar o que se produce por dolor debe ser penalizada fuertemente. La primera funcion de los jueces es defender la salud e integridad de los caballos.

An important factor that the judges must consider, with regard to the point of the elevation in the Paso Fino, is the naturalness. This is more important than if it is higher or lower than is desired. Only the natural elevation is heritable trait. The low elevation that is not natural and that happens as result of horses that are worked without shoeing or with soreing, must be penalized strongly. The primary function of the judges is to defend the health and integrity of the horses.

Lo mas importante al respectoes que sea una elevacion compensada, no solo las manos, los posteriores tambien son muy importantes y deben ser nivelados para que el sonido coincida con el esperado de 2 o 4 tiempos. No necesariamente entre mas bajito sea el paso fino mejor y aunque puede ser una cualidad no es lo mas importante, La Maraquita y el Tormento no son precisamente bajitos y ellos son los campeones mundiales.

The most important thing, in respect to the elevation, is that it is a compensated elevation, not only the hands (front legs), the rear legs also are very important. They must be equal, so that the sound should be 2 or 4 beats. Lower elevation, does not necessarily make a better Paso Fino and although it may be a quality, it is not the most important thing. La Maraquita and Tormento are not very low handed, and they are the world champions.

grif

Candice, I don't have any more info on the DVDs than what I posted. But didn't they say at the clinic that the presentation of Dr. Torres was the same one that he presented at the previous clinic but ran out of time?

BigJ

I think so, Cindy.

No matter, I really enjoyed some of the presentations at the J&S clinincs. It keeps me coming back. I wish more of those types of clinics were available and more members would attend. Of course, the room was at capacity last couple of years. I don't know if the clinic organizations would be prepared for a bunch of non J&S types showing up. You judge types look more human up close! Razz

I'll send a request for a copy of the DVD.

Kerry W · Site Admin

Hola Candice,

Espero poder responder algunas de sus preguntas.

La tabla de puntaje de Fedequinas es el resultado de más de 60 años de trabajo en la pista colombiana. De evaluar errores y aciertos en los juzgamientos y la cría de caballos; y de unificar el criterio de expositores, criadores, jueces, entrenadores y conocedores del tema. Nace hace algunos años como respuesta a la necesidad de cuantificar las cualidades de los caballos para que sirva de herramienta a los jueces, al público y a los criadores. No siempre las divisiones de fenotipo, adiestramiento y movimiento tuvieron los mismos valores. Nace hace algunos años como respuesta a la necesidad de cuantificar las cualidades de los caballos para que sirva de herramienta a los jueces, al público y a los criadores. No siempre las divisiones de fenotipo, adiestramiento y movimiento tuvieron los mismos valores. Con el tiempo han ido variando según evoluciona la raza, la última modificación se hizo hace unos 4 años y Confepaso adopto los mismos valores. Hoy en día, después de muchas discusiones en Colombia todos estamos identificados con esta tabla que esta incluida en el reglamento. Para los jueces es una gran ayuda en el momento de elaborar nuestros resultados y en la explicación por el micrófono de cada clase que en Colombia es obligatoria.

En USA las tablas de valores de la PFHA son diferentes, varían dependiendo de la clase que se juzga, y los jueces deben por reglamento ajustar sus decisiones
a los siguiente valores:

CLASSIC FINO

•75% Ejecución

•15% Phenotype, Conformatión and desplazamiento

•10% Good manners.

PERFORMANCE

•30% Paso corto - 30% Paso largo - 10% Walk

•20% Appearance y conformation.

•10% Good manners

PLEASURE

•25% Paso corto - 25% Paso largo - 10% Flat Walk

•40% Good manners, conformatión, actitud

Si la tabla de Fedequinas se va a aplicar en la cría, se debe cambiar el agregado por manejo por la valoración de la calidad de los reproductores y yeguas que aparecen en el pedigree, agregando valor también a lo que se puede llamar “adiestrabilidad” que quiere decir la facilidad o dificultad de algunas razas de caballos para asimilar la enseñanza del entrenamiento. Sirve para que cada criador pueda valorar su yegua y los posibles candidatos a reproductores y por ultimo ayuda después de hacer este análisis a definir cuales son las cualidades y defectos que fija cada línea de sangre.

Por ultimo estoy 100% de acuerdo con Big J: la elevación es un punto mas para conciderar en la evaluación de cada caballo pero no el definitivo al momento de tomar una decisión, esta es resultado de un conjunto de cualidades que presenta cada competidor.

Perdon por extender mi respuesta. Les propongo que si tienen alguna pregunta y yo la puedo responder lo haré. Si no sé la respuesta me comprometo a investigarla para que aprendamos todos.

Angela Ochoa

Hello Candice

I hope to be able to answer some of your questions.

The table of points of Fedequinas is the result of more than 60 years of work in the Colombian show arena, of evaluating errors and things done correctly in the judgment and the breed of horses; and of unifying the criteria of exhibitors, breeders, judges, trainers and connoisseurs of the subject. It came about some years ago in response to the need to quantify the qualities of the horses so that it serves as tool for the judges, the public and the breeders.

The divisions of phenotype, training and movement have not always had the same values. With time they have been changing as the breed evolves, the last modification was approximately 4 years ago and Confepaso adopted the same values. Nowadays, after many discussions in Colombia we all are use this table that is included in the regulation. For the judges it is a big help in the moment to prepare our results and in the explanation for the microphone in every class, which in Colombia is obligatory.

In the USA the set of values of the PFHA is different, it changes depending on the class that is judged, and the judges have to for regulation fit his decisions to following values:

CLASSIC FINO

• 75% Execution

• 15% Phenotype, conformation and movement

• 10% Good manners

PERFORMANCE

• 30% Corto - 30% Largo - 10% Walk

• 20% Appearance and conformation

• 10% Good manners, conformation, attitude

PLEASURE

•25% Paso corto - 25% Paso largo - 10% Flat Walk

•40% Good manners, conformation, attitude

If the table of Fedequinas is to be applied to the breed, we should change the way we manage the evaluation of the quality of the stallions and mares that appear in a pedigree, adding value also to what is called "adiestrabilidad", which means the ease or difficulty of some lines of horses to absorb the education of their training. It serves each breeder to evaluate his mare and the possible candidates of stallions, and finally it helps after doing this analysis to define which are the qualities and shortcomings of each bloodline.

Finally I am 100% in agreement with Big J: the elevation is one more point for consideration in the evaluation of every horse, but not the definitive one in the moment to make a decision, this is a result of a set of qualities that each horse presents.

Pardon me for the delay in my response. I propose to everyone, that if they have some question and I can answer it that I will. If I do not know the answer, I promise to investigate it so that we all might learn.

Angela Ochoa

BigJ

Thank you Angela for taking the time to answer my questions and to Kerry/Felix for taking the time to post it for me. I have a better reference; I hope a better understanding.

I am not in disagreement at all with quantifying traits. I see it as constructive and helpful when assessing an animal an any level from riding on a trail to assessing genotype. However, I am worried about how a tool becomes the master and the master is then nothing more than a tool. The reason for my concerns, to be blunt, is I still think the USA has not developed the sophistication of understanding the breed like in the countries of origin. We are much further along in some ways and in other ways we have taken a few steps backward.

I realize we are discussing a dynamic system between man and his relationship with the horse that is constantly changing as we learn and adjust. I believe what we lack here in the USA is a place to learn and to educate, which will provide confidence and security in our decisions. It will prevent us from becoming enslaved in a method without the power to change it.

This is the fear I have. Without a sound foundation, instead of using an standards to assist, we will begin using it as an excuse for our actions or to misconstrue it into a style of entertainment instead of maintaining its original integrity. An example is the tail switching policy. In context, it is logical and warranted. However, in practice, I observe crowds who yell every time a judge does not see a tail switch and horses dismissed based on little else. Another example is the disobedience policy. Young horses dismissed because their eyesight can't judge depth and jumps over a beam of light on the board thinking it might a hole or root. I have seen horses slip on slick, wet boards or be dismissed for being out of gait. The horse should be awarded for not falling down!

The reason our rules are rather broadly stated is because it allows for some discretion by the judges who should be experts and extensively trained to asses the breed. Personally I'd like for our judges to have this discretion. A young horse bobbles because the equine eye cannot see as we see is forgiven and allowed to continue. The tail switching could be temper or discomfort or excitement. Judges should know the difference and be allowed to weigh it accordingly.

However, I do agree, the ambiguity of our rules is very confusing for the majority of newcomers who have had no reference except other breeds in the United States, which do not lend themselves to understanding a Spanish breed. I am very supportive of developing a manual or guide to compliment our judging rules to help train people how to assess horses. Ideally, keep the discretion yet have the standards available as reference. If we adopt standards without the proper training or comprehensive understanding, I am afraid we will risk losing what we are trying to preserve.

It is strictly my opinion and no reflection of this forum or others.

grif

Great post, Candice. I agree entirely. And, thankyou as well, Angela for joining the disussion here. I am enjoying. Very Happy

caliber · Site Admin

Posting for Agela Ochoa

Hola Candice y Cindy
Hello Candice and Cindy

De nuevo estoy de acuerdo con Big j, la tabla es una poderosa
herramienta, pero ustedes me hacen reflexionar que por si sola la tabla
no sirve si no esta respaldada por la educacion que permita evaluar con
soporte, cada caracteristica.

Again, I am in accordance with Big j, the chart is a powerful
tool, but you made me reflect that, the chart alone
will not serve its purpose if, not endorsed by the education that will allows to evaluate with support each and every characteristic.

Creo que debemos ampliar el concepto de cual es el ideal de cada item y que es indeseable si queremos hacer un correcto uso apoyados en ella dentro de la pista, la tribuna o el criadero.

I believe that we must extend the concept of which it is the ideal one of every item, and that is undesirable if we want to make a correct use supported inside the show ring, tribune or the breeding ground.
Cada vez que voy a juzgar una exposicion me doy cuenta de lo mucho que debo aprender y de la labor de los jueces de enseñar. Cada vez debemos ser alumnos y profesores, es parte de nuestra funcion.

Each time I am going to judge an exhibition (show),I realize the many thing that I must learn, and the work of the judges of teaching. Every time, we must be students and teachers, it is a part of our function.

La raza Paso fino esta permanentemente en evolucion por eso nunca terminamos de aprender....... afortunadamente. Un saludos desde Colombia a las dos.

The Paso Fino Breed is permanently in evolution, that's why we never stop learning ....... fortunately.
Greetings from Colombia for you and Cindy.

Angela Ochoa