| Archive for PasoVoice.Com Paso Fino, Trocha Pura, Trote Galope and Trocha Galope Horses |
| caliber |
What would you say happened?I remember when our MARKET was UP and HIGH ! when our horses where identified for their beauty... and presence!What do you think happened? This site is an ANDALUSIAN Horse site! Look at their prices (euro), what are they doing that we are not? http://www.zamoraandalusians.com/index.html Here is a Show Andalusian Horse from their farm http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7Bj9QS4gLE |
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| Pasofinoguy |
Pasos arnt for everyone. Some dont like the brio, some dont like the size, some dont like how they were trained. Yeh prices are way down. i just looked at a paso sites sales page and way low prices. Are the stallions breeding many mares this year. Its not even worth breeding unless you do it just for yourself. Lets say i had heavy and good size trail pasos that where really smooth and easy going. In a area where they cant give away grade horses and not good prices for ave qh's how do you sell a paso to these people. So sellng a horse for 5k or even 3k you have to sell it very young to even make a penny. So why do it at all. The horse market is gone and we just have to ride it out and wait. | ||||
| BFF |
I've heard complaints from owners of all breeds, I don't think that the Paso market is the only one affected. Also, just because they have high prices on their horses doesn't mean they are selling them for that amount. However I will say we get more interest in the Friesian Sport Horses we have for sale than we do the Paso's and like I've said before most people I've talked to know what a Friesian is but not a Paso. I agree with Adam in that I think it is something we are going to have to wait out but, in the meantime we still need to figure out how to market Paso's to new people. I had one man tell me about the Paso's "I think they are nice little horses for women and children" I just wonder how many people feel this way?
Sherry |
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| Pasofinoguy |
As far as men go. In this area they want a horse that is at least 14.2 and 1200 pounds. All i ever hear is how small my pasos are. And all they hear is how smooth mine are. | ||||
| britzlove |
First I have to say that I'm not at all impressed with the training of that horse. He's another victim of a bad training that is marketed as something desirable to learn. a complete misinterpretation of a historical horseman's tradition.
However, in my opinion, what we did is start breeding far too many. We sold people horses not with the thought about how great the experience would be to own them, and ride them, but sold horses with the only qualification being pushed is how much their offspring would sell for. Far too many people went bust and sold horses too cheap and allowed low market breeders to start up. There are people that mortgage their houses to buy an Andalusian stallion, but they won't mortgage it enough to buy a herd of comparable mares, and they crossbreed to the cheapest wombs they can find, but they aren't sucessful, and they quit very easily. The number one thing I think is, they are marketed to riders, not want to be breeders. In the dressage world, there's a school rumor that you really have to be quite advanced to ride an Andalusian, and for the most part, many people who want to ride them ride dressage. You don't ride a fourth level horse if you aren't trained to typically. If you go to dreamhorse, or equine.com and look at the Andalusians for sale, you'll see write ups about dressage scores, championships, revision, etc. Information for riders. While there is mention of breeding potential sometimes, its an after thought, not the main highlighted selling factor. Also, you don't have to worry about gait, they aren't shown in special tack, they don't have to be trained to trot, they have movement, or they don't. They invest alot of money in the horses they ask alot of money for. In most instances, very little profit is actually made with these horses, as far as breeding. Eventually, after a stallion has begun proving himself through his offspring, the babies will start making breeders money. But most of them that are for sale are for sale from trainers, or owners looking for something different. The trainers make their money training horses, giving lessons, that's where most of the money comes from. Take for example, the stallion I saw last April, that I have followed for over 10 years. When he first came on the scene, he wasn't famous, now he is. But his owner invested trucks full of money in his training, and promotion. But he now has championships of his own, and many many champion offspring in many venues. He has a full book, because his babies are legitimized. But, if you looked I bet at her books, she hasn't always profited from him, other than the joy of owning him. I haven't given up my dream of owning one someday. I'm close to owning a nice crossed one. |
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| BFF |
Do you think because sales are down people are breeding less? And if they are do you think that will help prices/sales get back to what they used to be? | ||||
| britzlove |
I think the breeders who have buyers haven't changed practices at all. I think there are still clueless breeders losing money, continuing the trend by overproduction.
I think #1, what's happening in the economy right now, needs to happen, for everything. Yeah, I'm one of those that's saying this will be good in the long run, it's just really hard for people to see that when the immediate situation is so hard to endure. So, I think the pleasure market is past flooded. There are simply far too many average use horses to fill the demand. If you are a buyer looking for a horse to ride at home, on trail rides, open shows, fun shows etc, you have so many thousand choices at bargain price all the way to free. I think the people that are still breeding with all the preparation required to market a specialty, are still doing so sucessfully, and should. I think we have breeders in this breed that are the kind that need to stick around. Then, we have those who never, ever should have tried to get into the business and I wish they'd crawl back under their rocks. Will breeding less help the price go back up? Nope, not even when the economy recovers. At least, not necessarily, it is still going to depend on what the horse is. The only thing that will help a horse's price is to follow the demand. |
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| caliber |
Good thoughts!! I think we need to look at the horse! and promote our breed for what this breed truly is! This breed is NOT all about shows! This breed is NOT all about trails! This breed is ALL about being the most comfortable riding horses in the world! that is the only true meaning of this breed. Over the years I have seen the WAR over THE MARKET! only to promote their camels! and on the other side to promote bullets. I think is about time to go back and really study the origin of this breed..... and promote with all honesty was this breed is all about,and how those countries have successfully maintain a standard of horses, something we are having trouble with...... WHAT ARE WE DOING TO THIS BREED??????????? I agree! This breed is not for everyone, and so is any other breed..... Perfect example, I have many members in my family whom their preference mount is the ANDALUSIANS horses.. That is OK! |
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| britzlove |
I really think, that there needs to be, with regards to this breed, some standards continually set by the show circuit. Now, I realize that you don't want people to think that they are only show horses, but, the standard has to be set there.
Bringing up the Andalusians is great, but see, they've really changed little about how they are judged, and certified (revised, inscribed etc). As I said, I bought my mare with the express intent to breed her to an Andalusian or Lusitano. I've whittled it down to 3 or 4 candidates. I can have confidence, that at least if I breed her to these stallions, they should have enough to make them very marketable, because, she's marketable, and the offspring of the stallions are as well, and they have all been revised, they are all National Champions, some more than once, two have been championed or scored well in International competition. However, like I said I dream of owning one someday, a purebred. I may hold the above standards to my crossbreds, but when I buy one, as I hope to, I would likely import one. That's another thing we really have to do here, is import more pasos. By and large, there are simply more higher quality horses if you search other countries. Very, very, few Americans can understand the art of breeding. |
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| BFF |
Ok, I'm just going to be really open and honest here because well, that's who I am 
You all scare me. Seriously. We are new horse owners and since buying our horses we have chosen to breed one of our mares. I do feel like we have made educated decisions with the help of a professional trainer but I'm wondering are we of those people whom you feel are worthy of breeding our horses or are we some of those who you would like to see crawl back under their rocks? Do we know what we are doing? I would be the first to say " NO " but, thats why we have someone to help us everystep of the way. And, that's why I'm here on this forum to seek help from those of you who have been there and done that and most of all to be educated. Please don't take this the wrong way but I am feeling like what I am finding here is a lot of negative opinions. |
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| britzlove |
Whoo,
I'm sorry, occaisonally I get carried away and I say things that I expect, the people who've read all my blabbering before to understand. By all means, breed your mare. Especially if you are breeding for yourself. If you were encouraged to breed because the baby would be sold quickly when it was young, I'd encourage you to think about it some more. When I said the crawl under rocks thing, I was thinking of one person who sells pinto horses, and was literally run out of the showring a few times, who sells people below average quality for way above average price and her "pitch" is invest this much, get this much back as soon as the baby comes. I am very sorry, I really am. I shouldn't let those things taint the way I write sometimes but I accidently do. One other thing that I would do, is visit as many breeding animals as possible though, and be open to as many people as possible. I said follow the demand, even if you are breeding for sale, go find what is selling, first, what people really want. It's something that's actually fun to do, and you don't need help. I think it's great you have help though, but one sided isn't the way, go find out which kinds of horses actually regularly go to new homes. Because of the plight of the homeless I am overprotective. Please don't think I was being critical to you. Unless the ONLY reason you're breeding is because this pro told you to, or encouraged you to. If you are breeding average, please, think about it a little harder. |
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| BFF |
Thank you.
I do feel we are making wise decisions and I trust our trainer 100% I know he is only looking out for our best interest. We bought our mare in Dec. 07 and she foaled in Jan 08. We did buy her with the thought of possibly selling the foal and I even had him for sale for a short period of time and then decided we would keep him with hopes of someday showing him. We then rebred the same mare and will also keep this foal due March 09. I've not seen the sires to the foals in person, only on video. We attended Nationals as spectators trying to become more educated and it seems the stallions we bred to are producing. I would like to start showing and liked the idea of raising my horses from day one. But, until then I have a pleasure gelding that I may show locally. Am I breeding average? I sure hope not. I guess time will tell. 
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| caliber |
WELL! BFF! I see very well bred horses on your site! so, it seems to me and only my opinion, you are way above average.
Is the Majestuoso mare still available? |
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| BFF |
Thank you.
Yes, Chewy is still available. |
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| caliber |
She is exceptional! | ||||
| 4enduro |
http://www.equinenow.com/farm/royal_horse_farms.htm
http://www.royalhorsefarms.com/ PFF,your Bomba the Amorio Mile daughter is I think the best horse you have. I do not know the dam lines but the top is a superb horse I have seen at Nationals,he can do some very diversified things and is athletic besides his gransire Juarez has some other very great get as well. |
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| BFF |
Thank you. | ||||
| BigJ |
It depends. The problem I have observed is the complacency not to evolve with the horse. I'm not suggesting that to go so far and then stay there should be punished, but only to be honest about it. For instance, if I choose to only go so far in learning about different gaits, conformation, anatomy, reproduction, riding skills, training, management, etc.; there is nothing wrong with that. What IS wrong to to present myself as if the years associated with the horse has been fruitful and productive. It is not time that measures someone's worth but the level of their HONESTY with their involvement. If I want to spend 30+ years with a breed of horse and still not understand what it is then OK. However, it is not OK to present myself as an adviser to others when I am not even able to advise myself on intricate matters--have not tried, have no exposure or education to stand on. If a person desires to become a standard, then it must be measured. Does that make sense? To be judged by ones peers. That means evolving, maturing, progressing through challenges and creating one's own quests for improvement because it helps for better understanding of the horse. It is not OK to be two-tongued. I don't understand how anyone who is attracted to a breed from a different culture/country than from where it originated has the audacity to say he/she knows better about the breed than that culture/country. What attracted the person to the horse to begin with and did not that country/culture make the horse that you are attracted to? Respect what the horse is, where it comes from and learn. Nor is it OK to be from that culture/country, know nothing but pretend to because you are born into that culture/country. NO ONE is born knowing the knowledge and skill it takes to be with a horse. It must be learned just as learning to speak, eat, and walk must be learned. I believe the point was we are here because we want to evolve with the breed, to keep pace, to understand what is happening to it whether by our own hands or by the grace of God. We are here because we strive to become better than what we are, to be worthy of being part of the Paso breed. So, if someone seeks to become complacent or does not want to learn, this may not be the place.
Do any one of us really KNOW what we are doing??? NO!!! What we do know is what we like and what we like respects what the breed is. We are very lucky to be involved in a breed that maintains much of what it is in spite of us. Yes, I agree much of what is written or read appears on the surface to carry a negative tone. That is unfortunate and I apologize, not of the tone but because I know a newcomer cannot understand why on the surface. It is really rather simple: be true to yourself, be sincere, and be honest. Too many present themselves with veiled agendas that hurt the very thing they claim to love--the breed. It may appear we are harsh, but I have found out that I am forgiven and even loved many times over any aggression I cause only because I mean it from my heart. We do not always agree with each other about many things (just ask!) but we do care deeply for the breed and respect each other for what each brings to the table. It is not a measure of time in the breed but a measure of your true self that determines if you are "worthy" or not. |
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| caliber |
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| The Professional |
My compliments to you for such a caring comment! The economy in Europe is stronger that the one here in the US right now, so without doubt that could be the possible cause for the high prices there. |
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| PasoTres |
TTT | ||||
| wildflower |
Maybe I missed it but nobody mentionned that the major problem for the saturated market is the embryo transfer, I think that there should be exception to the rules but don't think that we should breed a mare every time she gets in heat, they are not money machine! It brings the price down and it is hurting our breed.
Also, the lack of marketing when we have events does not help. Flyers should be in every tack and feed stores advertising up coming local shows to begin with, sometimes OBS don't even put the event on the sign up til thursday before the friday show! Just me two cents I wish I could write like some of you! Hey Sherrie, is Alondra nice and fat yet? that should be a really nice baby with Joyero III. Hope this year is great for everyone, we will see you at the show, who is going to the Ocala Classic Feb 19-20-21? Jacky McDaniel Wildflower Paso Fino Ocala FL Trainer: Jose "Chino" Rosa |
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| BFF |
Yes, Jacky Alondra is really starting to show! She's not as big as she was when we got her from you but, she's not as far along either. I'll try to send you some pictures.
We're really excited about the foal!! Only two more months. I'm ready for another baby, Insomnio is getting to big to be a baby he'll be a year this month can you believe it??? I can't thank you guys enough for him, he is so sweet and well behaved we're not even thinking of gelding him yet. I can't wait to see him under saddle!! And, he is just beautiful! Although I can't ever decide if he looks more like Alondra or Retorno, I change my mind weekly. Our plan is to start showing Alondra after this foal, what little bit I've ridden her between babies, she felt awesome! I am just so glad we bought her from you, Although I guess Wildflower is sort of to blame for my new Paso addiction since you sold us our first Paso Fino! Ha Ha! I agree with you on marketing the shows. We went to a fun show this weekend and, I think there were over 150 horses there about 6 Paso Finos. I think it's really important to support these smaller fun events. Everyone there was really paying a lot of attention to our horses. We didn't set up a table but, were going back in Feb. and I think we will try to then. As we were showing you could hear the people in the bleachers talking about the Paso's gait and how smooth they looked. Again, alot of people we talked to had never heard of Paso Finos. I think it's important to get our horses out there, people will take notice! |
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| wildflower |
Alondra is a fine mare and she is a pet, I knew that she would be a great mare for you and your family and I knew that she would have a good home, and that is what's most important to us. It is very important that a seller be very honest about the horse they are selling.
Jacky |
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| The Professional |
Here we have two different statement that makes a lot of contrast, you’ll probably not seeing it at first but a closest look would demonstrated What I mean. First of all, What Mildflower is saying, I compared with what I refer as “empty womb” syndrome. New owners feel the urge to breed just because they have a new paso mare and its needs to be full. However I don’t think that is what brings the prices down, and as far of hurting the breed I will say it depends. The demand set the price. We can talk about that later but now I want to point out that the PPR breed is in fact in need of reproduction and that’s why I said, it depends. What all this had to do with BBF quote? Well for instance she’s right about new owners having made educated decisions with the help of professional trainers. The thing is that not all of professional trainers are qualify to give advice about a serious matter like breeding program issue. Can you all see now how both quotes are contrasting? Empty womb plus the urge to breed with the lack of profound knowledge about breeding but with the good intentions of make a profit out of the new toy mare, which is not bad after all, since we all wanted to make money but in the process we’re breeding some backyard specimens for not call it mongos, chongos, pencos, etc.etc.etc. and that is what really make the difference in price. The good horse (product) is all ways a good horse and should be priced accordingly. If the contrary… a penco (depictive form of name for horse that don’t meet the requirements) will be price also accordingly, cheaper of course. People… if we desperate breed without a purpose, without a good breeding plan and I mean plan; then you’ll get lucky if you end up with one good colt out of five and anyone is entitled to disagree with that but please, with all due respect, check around first. |
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| The Professional |
Announcing the shows is at most to get followers into the sport and if we are to sale we can also point our canons to the new prospect because they are more prompt to buy that the already paso owners who probably think that if the horse is not a champion material is not worth the effort.
They have too many horses already. We have to start looking for persons who has never seeing a paso fino before or horse owners with different breeds, or new paso owners who have the vision of keep a piece of history trough a well planed breeding program and for that matter I’m compel to suggest the PPR breed to initially a breeding program. Besides making some money you will preserve a bulwark of more than 500 years old. |
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| BFF |
Professional, I respect your opinion but, if you are going to use me as an example then you my friend may need to do some homework of your own and find out the intent and purpose of my "breeding program" is at this time only to produce horses for me and my family to show and enjoy.
The few Paso's I do have for sale came as "package deals" and therefore I am selling the part of the package I do not need. I did not choose who all of my mares were bred to. Some of them came already in foal or with foals at their side. As far as the Atrevido mare Jacky was refering to she was in foal to Retorno de LM when we bought her and we rebred her to Joyero III not to try and sell the foals but to produce something for our personal use. If you do not like the choices we have made, I'm sorry to hear that . Next time I'll be sure to get your input
I have no plans to breed any of my Paso mares in '09 . If that's ok with you
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| The Professional |
I appreciate it you respect my opinion as I do respect yours, I only ask you to read carefully my dear BBF because I Believe you’re missing the point of what I state when quoting you. Having advice, learn from other breeders and so on is precisely what I’m trying to encourage here, that was you were saying, and I’m agree with that. So my intensions when I quote you were for that matter only.
Still, like I say and insist once again, not all trainers are capable of wisely advice on breeding issue, as a trainer that also put myself on the spot. But an honest advice is to say that only those who has experience in breeding, and happened to know what to look for, all aspect taken into consideration… those can give advice. Other wise and remember that we’re not talking about yours or anybody else personal enjoyment breeding plan… no, the issue here is the value in the market in comparison with the one in Europe. In which case, if ANY new paso owner is looking for suggestions on a breeding program for a selling market; or breeding to preserve a breed… evidently a different program than yours, as you say you breed for your enjoyment and pleasure which is good, but is not what I’m talking here so you don’t need my advice on that. But for the new breeder or the experienced as well who wanted to have a breeding program not to bring more horses to the world, but to bring better paso finos to preserve and to promote. To the one who want to buy and sell in a market so plague by dishonest people, discriminations against the breeds and other obstacles… they need to take advice from trainers, owners and breeders who knows what they dealing with. Specifically, I’m talking about the PPR breed, AN INSTITUTION that is unique in the world and can look back on a tradition of more than 500 years OF MORAL OBLIGATION to its past! For that I already had done my homework. So, as you can see, I’m not talking about any of your paso horses or haow you breed them. That’s your prerogative, but I’ve seeing it so many times, and that is the topic here… (What would you say happened?) Indiscriminate breeding! Not breeding for bring the best of the breed or make it better as many of the original characteristic of the paso fino has been lost. My concern and I hope you understand me now, is that the breeders should bear in mind that this is not any kind of horse but a unique equine and we have to breed with consciousness and feel the commitment to preserve this breed. Capisce? |
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| BFF |
Yes, I understand. Thank you.
I was just talking about the PPR and I was saying how there is another whole world out there that I know nothing about. I am interested in becoming more educated. Where would you suggest I start? |
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| The Professional |
You're most welcome!
I've the feeling that you has started already. For once, this forum is a great source of information and it's geting better every day. To be honest with you, I'm also learning every single day. Paso Fino world is a never ending journey of learning and growing, an experience for all who seek enjoyment in live through a novel and unique animal like paso fino. |
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| caliber |
Professional! Thank you for your kind words! | ||||