What is the Judges' term for this.....

pasosx3 · What is the Judges' term for this.....

I apologize in advance if this is a basic (stupid) question, but here goes:

A Paso Fino goes down the Sounding Board and he is in a 4 beat lateral gait which is correct, which I mean to say, that it is an evenly spaced 4 beat lateral gait.

Here is my question: What word or term do the Judges' use to describe the horse who does not strike the Sounding Board with an even power or strength of his legs or hooves? To me, it makes the horse sound "uneven" but I realized this is a misleading term because someone may interpret it to mean that the gait is not an evenly spaced 4 beat gait. So, what are the "correct" or "technical" terms for the uneven/unbalanced foot strikes? In both English and Spanish. Thank you.

Kerry W

I don't know...but you get 10 bonus points for the best question of the week! goodjob

BigJ · Excellent question!

I don't what the judges call it but it's called cadence, which can refer to both the timing and harmonics.

Generally if the harmonics aren't even in sound, it suggests a lack of squareness due to many causes.

caliber

Great Question Becky!

Here is an example of Fedequinas/Confepaso Judging Chart:
In my opinion, the horses could be penalized for various thing.

Anterior or Posterior + Rythm, Cadence = -points

Tren Anterior o Tren Posterior + Ritmo, Cadencia, Suavidad en el Paso=
- puntos

English

Spanish

pasosx3

Thanks for responding Kerry W, Big J and Felix. Of course this bring up more questions and clarifications.

My biggest question before I ask any more questions: If the 4 beats are not evenly spaced, is this horse considered "not in modality"? And, excuseable (from the Ring)?

grif

I guess that would depend on who you are asking. Perhaps some of the CONFEPASO judges can answer in regard to CONFEPASO judging. As far as PFHA judging, no, the horse would not be excused for being out of gait. However, it should be penalized for poor cadence and marked down. Should be. But I saw a horse win many National titles last year who was so heavy on the forehand that you could not from a distance hear four beats at all. You could only hear the fronts. And he is a National Champion. Rolling Eyes

BigJ · Just my opinion

It depends. If the horse is stepping heavier or lighter due to lameness, then yes it should be excused.

Sometimes out of cadence is caused by mechanics where a foot is moving higher or lower. This is a fault. This could be caused by natural tendencies or influenced by training.

Sometimes the horse may not be out of gait at all. The rhythm is a very good 1-2-3-4, there may be no perceptible difference in animation, mechanics, etc. but the horse is still slightly heavy or light in one foot. This could be caused by a slight stiffness somewhere, say in the back, shoulder, neck, hip, or by a handiness--say left handed or right handed.

Usually handiness comes in twos. If a horse is lighter in the front left, chances are good he's heavier on another foot. It could be on the same side or not depending on his comfort.

As Cindy mentioned, the worst is when a horse is out of balance and very heavy or light footed. I don't mean out of gait. Recall our paso gait is about being square in all ways besides the 1-2-3-4 beat. That means the horse should look, sound, feel even in all directions.

Originally the board was used for either very close competitions where the horses appeared very balanced and in gait to decipher their cadence or to determine if a horse was "off".

If you watch the youtube video of Consentida de Amor, she is very nicely cadenced, but she is still not perfect. We also can't forget that not only is the gait ideally balanced but it must be expressed with beauty and grace. So a horse slightly out of cadence but expressing the gait in a way very pleasing to the eye and ear and feel could win over one who is more cadenced but hard on the eyes and rough to feel.

EDIT: I should add about the mechanics that it isn't always about height, but flight too. Horses that are more/less crooked in their legs will also hit softer or heavier. Anything that changes how a foot might take off, land or move while in the air could affect cadence. While most faults are in the flight of the foot or landing, I have seen off cadence by how a foot takes off too.

jorge torres

buenas noches,

la falta de sostenimiento en un caballo, lo penaliza. si la falta es muy continua se puede descalificar.

el cambio de modalidad si descalifica.

esto es tanto en fedequinas como en confepaso.

la cadencia es la velocidad del ritmo. la elevacion y la rapidez son heredados.
existen muchos casos en los cuales los caballos no marcan con claridad el andar o paso, esto puede ser por malos aplomos o mal arreglo de la boca.

jorge torres

Translation:

the absence to sustain in a horse, will be penalized. if the absence to sustain continues, could even lead to disqualified the horse.

When not in gait, yes, it will be disqualified

This goes for Fedequinas and Confepaso

the cadence is the speed of the rhythm. the elevation and the rapidity are inherited.

there exist many cases in which the horses do not mark with clarity the gait , this can be due to poor balance through trimming or shoeing, or bad arrangement of the mouth. (bitting)

pasosx3

Thank you everyone for replying. I appreciate your input in helping me to understand terms and definitions in the Judging and observation and descriptions of the paso fino gait.

OK. Let me see if I understand correctly what I am reading.

1. If the horse is unable to sustain an isochronic 4 beat gait (an evenly spaced 4 beat gait), it may or not get disqualified in a PFHA Show however it would count as a "fault" and be penalized. But this same horse would get disqualified in a Fedequinas/Confepaso Show because it would be considered "out of gait" and therefore disqualified? Is that what I am reading?

Also, I do want to clarify that my original post assumed an isochronic 4 beat gait. My question was, what do we call it when the feet strike the ground with different intensities. (I am not concerned at this point about why this may happen because that is an entire discussion on its own). I am interested in the vocabulary of the judges (or trainers, etc).

So, let me see if I understand the responses so far.

2. The terms "cadence", "clarity", "heaviness or lightness in a hoof", "out of balance" and "inability to sustain the gait" have all been used. If I understand correctly then, it seems that PFHA MIGHT count this as a fault and that Fedequinas/Confepaso DOES count it as a fault and penalizes it. It seems that PFHA would NOT disqualify a horse that performed in this manner (unless it was lame), but Fedequinas/Confepaso WOULD disqualify a horse that performed this way in a sustained manner. Is this correct?

3. Now, I am still confused about the terms cadence and clarity. Can they be used interchangeably?

Thank you again everyone for your comments. Sr Torres and Felix, thank you for giving the answers in Spanish, too. Sometimes I find that the Spanish terms are more exact and succinct than the English terms.

Bravo

In order to answer the question at this point of the discussion, I consider very important to clarify some terms about gaits:

RHYTHM (in Paso Fino gait) is the "evenly alternated four beat gait". If the horse breaks the rhythm, he is out of gait and should be penalized in any competition (CONFEPASO, PFHA, FEDEQUINAS, GRADPRIX, ATTA shows, etc.). Paso horses are judged for proper gait, which is the most important characteristic of these amazing breeds.

CADENCE is the speed of the rhythm. This means that the horse with a more animated sound on the board has a greater cadence. For instance, Classic Finos have the greatest cadence in the Paso Fino breed and, at the same time, the shortest extension of the steps that is needed to have that animated cadence. So, the original question has nothing to do with cadence.

A horse that hits the ground stronger with one leg can be in gait, but is "over-pounding" with such a leg. The expression used in Spanish is "el caballo tiene un galope (o galopito) en la extremidad...(say the leg)" (that translates into English as "the horse has a galope in the ...(say the leg)"). This can occur when the horse is pulling more on one side of the reins, having unbalanced hooves/shoes, being in pain on that leg (in any place from hoof to shoulder or hip), uneven landing on the opposite leg that sounds louder, Stringhalt syndrome, even as a vice developed due to one of the reasons above.

Although the term SYMMETRY makes reference to the four hooves reaching the same distance and the two front or two hind legs having the same elevation and advance, the judges may use the expression "lack of symmetry" ("falta de simetria") for a horse "over-pounding" with one leg.

grif

Symmetry may indeed be a better word for it. However, would it be applicable if visually the symmetry of the horse was accurate but the horse sounds louder on either the front or the hind? Or would you term it something else? As the word symmetry is generally used to indicate the visual impression as opposed to the auditory perception, is it not? And would you term it differently if it was only one leg (as that is what you have described) as opposed to either both hinds or both fronts?

pasosx3

Thank you Bravo for responding!

I must say that when I posted the question, I really did believe that it was a simple question with a simple answer however, based on the replies, I see that it is not so simple after all. I had assumed that the Judges and Trainers had a "common" term and vocabulary for describing what I was inquiring about. It seems that the Latins have perhaps a better vocabulary for it?

Bravo: When you use the term "galope" in your response, is it in regards to the verb galopar which can refer to haste, or speed, or hurriedly, speedily? I assume you are not referring to the galope or canter that we use to describe the Trote y Galope.

Anyway, I like your explanation of cadence. It is similar to what Sr Torres wrote and similar to the definition in the dictionary as well.

I wish there were a better term than "over pounding" however although it is descriptive. Symmetry seems to be a correct term as you describe it although it too could be confused with reference to the visual symmetry as grif pointed out in that post.

I think confusion happens too when we watch and listen at the same time. That is one reason why I sometimes turn my head away in order to concentrate on "hearing"' the gait. I too believe the sound or "music" of the gait is the most important thing. All else is secondary in my opinion.

My husband, a musician, suggested to me the term Intonation to refer to the "over pounding". What does everyone think of that term????

BigJ

I think of symmetry akin to equal or balanced.

I don't think the terms are independent. A well-cadenced horse is also very well balanced, symmetrical, even, has clarity, etc. However, I tend to agree with Cindy's points. I have seen horses that visually appear symmetrical that were not as cadenced as others when on the sounding board. I believe Bravo mentioned horses that sound louder or quieter in a foot.

A horse out of cadence is generally also out of balance, assymetrical, etc. and can be discerned through various tests not only the sounding board.

Borrowing again from a dictionary

1 a: a rhythmic sequence or flow of sounds in language b: the beat, time, or measure of rhythmical motion or activity
2 a: a falling inflection of the voice b: a concluding and usually falling strain; specifically : a musical chord sequence moving to a harmonic close or point of rest and giving the sense of harmonic completion
3: the modulated and rhythmic recurrence of a sound especially in nature

I use cadence more as in the case of #2 where there is a difference in inflection of the footfall or in the case of #3 when discussing the complete sequence of gait.

Whereas I can see the use of the term to mean a type of rhythym or speed. For me, when I mean speed, I say something like fast or slow.

It would be nice to see an example of these definitions so that we could all be clear on the meanings.

EDIT: I want to thank Dr. Torres and Diego Bravo for helping us to undertand the paso fino terms. Also to apologize for my persistence to the point of being a pest. The discussions are so important so that we find a common ground of understanding and so that we can properly introduce the breed in other countries.

grif

Bravo

That is right. The term "galope" (or "galopito") used in Spanish to say that a leg is "over-pounding" is not related to the gait "Galope" (canter) or faster speed. It is related to the greater strength of that leg to hit the ground that, although the four beats sound evenly alternated, the sound is not as clear due to the louder sound produced by the leg "over-pounding".

The reason to use the word "galope" (or "galopito") in order to say that there is a leg that sounds louder, comes from a similar sound produced by a horse in "Galope" (canter). Galope is a three beat gait, in which the first sound is produced when a hind leg hits the ground, the second sound (the loudest one) is produced by the other hind leg and its opposite front leg when they hit the ground at the same time (two legs sound louder than one), and the third sound is produced by the remaining front leg (the opposite to the first hind leg).

I agree that SYMMETRY is related to the visual movement but not to the sound. That is why I said before that, although it is not the best word to use, some judges may use this to describe the issue of a horse over-pounding with one leg.

Note: I want to insist that a horse "over-pounding" with one leg has nothing to do with CADENCE. The term CADENCE has been misussed in both Spanish (the word is CADENCIA) and English, while refering to gait. The only meaning of CADENCE (Cadencia) is SPEED OF THE RHYTHM or FREQUENCE, or "How many times the horse's hooves hit the ground in a period of time (let's say in a minute)." This has nothing to do with breaking gait (any gait: Paso Fino, Trocha, Trote, Galope).

grif

Not sure that I agree with you there, Diego. From the Wbster's dictionary:

Main Entry: ca·dence
Pronunciation: \ˈkā-dən(t)s\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old Italian cadenza, from cadere to fall, from Latin — more at chance
Date: 14th century
1 a: a rhythmic sequence or flow of sounds in language b: the beat, time, or measure of rhythmical motion or activity
2 a: a falling inflection of the voice b: a concluding and usually falling strain; specifically : a musical chord sequence moving to a harmonic close or point of rest and giving the sense of harmonic completion
3: the modulated and rhythmic recurrence of a sound especially in nature
— ca·denced \-dən(t)st\ adjective
— ca·den·tial \kā-ˈden(t)-shəl\ adjective

I do not see anything in the definition of the word "cadence" that relates to speed or how many times per minute something occurs. In fact, there are different terms that mean that. Also, hitting harder on one or two legs than the other legs is NOT breaking gait. Any gait.

Here is what the Websters' thesaurus gives as a synonym to the word cadence:

Entry Word: cadence
Function: noun
Text: the recurrent pattern formed by a series of sounds having a regular rise and fall in intensity <the soothing cadence of the lecturer's voice nearly put me to sleep> — see rhythm

In Spanish, wouldn't the word "velocidad", velocity, be used more appropriately to describe the rapidity of footfall?

grif

Just for the record, I think the answer to the original question and the word that we all should be using is "impact". Horses should be equal in impact on all four legs. They also should have equal cadence and symmetry. Cadence being the rhythm of the sound and symmetry being the evenness of the movement of all four limbs.

pasosx3

Bravo: Thank you for the explanation of the term "galope/galopito" as it is used to describe a horse that is "over pounding" with one leg or another. I understand perfectly what you described and I agree that galopito is a great way to describe the "over pounding" of one hoof or another while the horse may or may not be in gait. It is exactly the sound (of the over pounding) I am referring to and it is very similar to the sound that I hear in the ca-TOR-ce of the Trote y Galope galope gait. It is a good descriptive term. I can certainly see myself using the phrase "The Paso Fino is in modality and has a nice cadence but he is a bit "galopito"". (I know the "a bit" is redundant, but in English, I think it works).

I have never heard the term galope/galopito used here in the USA in regards to a Paso Fino, so I wonder: Is this term a Regional term? Is it a term commonly used in South America? Would a latino from, say, Puerto Rico or Dominican Republic be accustomed to this term as you have used it?

By the way, I have absolutely no problem adopting a Spanish word to describe the "over pounding", after all, we use the Spanish words "corto", "largo", "fino", and "jaquima", "pisador", etc to describe other things in the Paso Horse world.

Thanks again!

Bravo

PasosX3: I am glad that you got the idea about the "galopito" for "over-pounding". You associated the word in Spanish "ca-TOR-ce" that is used to describe the sound of "Galope" with the louder sound produced by the hoof that is over-pounding.

By the way, I have heard the same word being used by Paso people from different Latin nationalities to describe this issue.

BigJ

I certainly have enjoyed this discussion. It appears we might have some basic understandings but how we describe it may be different based on language and use of terms.

Sounds to me (this is a pun) that we need to have some examples presented so that we can become more clear about what we are discussing. I know this is a risk to open up criticisms of a particular animal, however I suggest we try and focus only of the superior demonstration of the gait character and go no further.

Of course, we could simply buy some Merlot or Shiraz and discuss this over herb bread, fresh cheese and roasted beef.

I hope none of us are discouraged and the topic continues.

grif

Well, I gotta say that it the thread has turned into more of a lecture than a discussion. It would be nice to have questions answered and discussed but it seems to be a one way street. But just for the SAKE of discussion and that of coming to a common point of view if possible, here is how the PFHA rule book defines some of the terms used here that is if anyone cares about the CORRECT definitions:

Cadence- The rhythmic recurrence of a sound; the beat, time or measure of rhythmical activity.

Impact- The contacting or striking of the hoof to the ground.

Symmetrical- Affecting corresponding parts similarly; harmonious and balanced.

And, although the CONFEPASO rule book has no glossary, here is a paragraph in which the Paso Fino gait is described using the word "cadence" so that one can see how the word is used in the context of describing the gait:

"During this sequence, the pause between the strikes of the lateral and diagonal are equidistant. It is this even cadence that is the basic characteristic of the Paso Fino gait and that which distinguishes it from other gaits. Musical to the ear, it translates into rapid and equally spaced movements in a 1-2-3-4 cadence. When the horse is at its top performance, it seems unified and rhythmical, moving its legs smoothly and elastically as the feet meet the ground, projecting itself at an evenly-paced cadence and speed absorbing the motion in the back and hindquarter, exhibiting the least amount of lateral and vertical movement possible and in a constant line without any up-and-down movement, making a comfortable ride for the equestrian and making both, horse and rider, seem as one melded entity controlled by the reins and the bit."

So, there you go. For anyone interested in what the rule books say. I am done. See ya.

britzlove

How about some questions and thoughts from a complete amatuer? I was distracted and so far had missed really getting to read this thread.

I found the use of "galope" or "galopito" to describe two different things easy to understand, as there are many words in both Spanish and English that have different meanings based on context. May not be the clearest word that could be used, but I see the use of it.

I agree with Candice that I'd love to see some examples discussed, just as I saw at Mundial and have seen in many other shows (though on video, generally, you don't have the entire experience of live). I learn alot from this. I see the risk, and would personally say that here, on this list, any nasty criticism, not critical evalutation, would be deleted.

My questions would be,
Often I see horses on video that appear to be slow, and timid in the rear. The front seem to be fine, the front legs right and left have the same elevation, the same rythym, but the rear seem to hit lighter, not as much elevation, timidly placed, the only word I can find to say that, not placed with conviction rather just set there. I wish I could describe this better.

I see the same thing, where the rear seem to be driving, and placing with conviction, but the fore legs seem just set there, or set there without the same elevation, appearing slower to my eye (though it may not be the case).

So I wonder if somewhere in the above question this discussion can be applied?

BigJ

Bravo

Grif: The definitions that you posted are very clear.

Thank you.

britzlove

OK, I don't know how to talk about stiffness?

I would agree with you that plenty of times I don't see this faulted as I think it should be, because to me, it isn't in keeping with what we're supposed to experience with better perfoming horses.

I'm not a hundred percent sure you understood me correctly, not that you could, and that is why I'd wonder why we couldn't talk about examples. If I had a horse riding consistently right now, I'd offer it up for evaluation, but I don't.

Another way I might be able to say it is, I would call the horse dragging its hind or pushing a dead forehand. Maybe?

I am pretty sure we talked about another thing that shows up too much sometimes, at Mundial. I call it two-tracking, but I don't know if that's what it should be called for pasos. Seemingly in canter or trot with opposite ends, I know there's another term I was just thinking of but Hubby is running on at the mouth and I lost the thought.

BigJ

I think I do follow Britz...or not, but I still say most of this is caused by a brace and the front end is being caused by damage to the vertebrae, tendons, ligaments around the shoulder/neck tie in as a result of the fantasims of flexing. I have seen more and more problems to the front end that I didn't see years ago before the idea of flexing. The abuse of such an exercise really boils me.

I've begun a few casual discussions with others outside the breed to get feedback on my ideas about this and so far, no one has said that I'm too way off to think this is a problem.

Some of the rear end dragging is the same cause--a hollowness or brace in the vertebrae near the rear end. Dragging is an avoidance mechanism or a survival mechanism depending.

Well, I'll leave it at this or I'll begin my mantra about our judges needing to be taught by 4-H'ers again.

britzlove

LOL, well, I know the strength of 4-H judging programs and can't wait for my daughter to start this year.

Perhaps we need to have examples, I'll ask Sr. Felix.

ahhhm(clearing throat), Sr. Felix, what do you think?

pasosx3

I was away from my computer yesterday. Lots of discussion since then I see.

I had the privilege and honor of meeting yesterday an older long time Professional Trainer visiting from Puerto Rico. He has brought a horse from the Island for Spectrum. He only trains Paso Finos. He doesn't speak (or very little) English and I speak little Spanish, but we had a translator.

I asked him the exact same question as in my original post. He began answering by explaining what causes the "over pounding". I told him that I understand what may cause it, but I wanted to know specifically what it is called when the horse does it. He said "Decimos 'El caballo tiene un galope'". He also used the term galope!

I the asked him about cadence. He said, it (the over-pounding) has nothing to do with cadence. He said that cadence is the speed of the rhythm. He also said if the horse is out of cadence, out of rhythm, it is out of gait and should be disqualified. A horse that "tiene galope" is not necessarily out of gait.

He went on to say that another term for the over-pounding, or galope/galopito that he has heard used is the term "falsiendo". Does anyone want to comment on that?

Grif: You wrote the definitions below: (I apologize for not knowing how to Highlight the text that I am referring to--if anyone wants to PM me to explain how, I would appreciate it. LOL).

Cadence- The rhythmic recurrence of a sound; the beat, time or measure of rhythmical activity.

Impact- The contacting or striking of the hoof to the ground.

Symmetrical- Affecting corresponding parts similarly; harmonious and balanced.

I think, based on what you wrote, Cadence does refer to the rhythm, which is to say, the evenly spaced 4 beat gait of Paso Fino. And, if the horse is out of rhythym, it is out of gait. This is also consistent with what you posted from Confepaso, too. Confepaso uses the phrase "rapid and equally spaced" which I take to mean also the speed of footfalls. And, your (PFHA) definition of cadence does refer to the Speed of the footfalls when it uses the word "time or measure". Your Confepaso paragraph about cadence however says nothing about the "over pounding" of one hoof or another, so I conclude that they too believe that the "over-pounding" has nothing to with cadence either.

So, can we all finally agree that Cadence has nothing to do with the discussion of "over-pounding" or galope/galopito??????

grif: I think the term Impact is interesting however. When PFHA uses that term, how do they use it?

BigJ

Well, I'm still confused as to why speed terms aren't used for speed of cadence. You can have a horse that is very well candenced but not very fast. It is the rhythm not the speed that counts.

Kerry W

Ritmo also means tempo...and is on the judges card (see earlier post). It is a point of judgement. I think when we dissect words to the point of disagreement, that is what gets us in trouble. Many words have dual meanings in english/american and spanish. I only mention this to beg patience and understanding. I want people to feel free to share what is their reality, and not fear we are judging their system. That is the only way we can learn from one another, and that is the entire purpose of this forum.

caliber

In Spanish is defined as Speed! according to the University of Antioquia.

on this clip they mention
Cadencia Lenta meaning in Spanish! SLOW SPEED!

pasosx3

Big J: I'm going to jump in here to clarify quickly. I am not asking anyone to agree on what cadence is, and I perfectly understand your reluctance to capitulate (for intellectual reasons). I think the discussion of cadence is interesting as it relates to the rhythm and speed of the gait, but that is not what I was inquiring about in my original post.

So....I am asking: Can we agree that the "over-pounding" with one foot or galope/galopito (my Initial question) has nothing to do with the discussion of cadence?

If we can do that, then I am satisfied that my Initial inquiry has been answered satisfactorily, although I am still curious about the term 'impact' and 'falsiendo' as it might relate to galope/galopito. I do think that perhaps the Topic of Cadence might be a great Topic in a New Thread!

BigJ

Oh brother! Rolling Eyes

This is why I don't bother.

First no one bothers to read that I am trying to clarify and to do so means to get into the details of the discussion. Because let me tell you my English speaking gringos, when you say "YYYY" thinking "XXXXX" you will be wrong because I will now ask how you differentiate XXXX from YYYY of the SAME horse in the SAME gait.

Second, I have repeated myself several times that I think we are in agreement BUT the words are not quite the same meaning when translated or when speaking a different language.

Third, FINALLY some one understands! Thanks Felix!

Last, if we do not take the time to dissect the terms of description we risk never reaching an understanding of agreement! Even if it is to say we may not exactly agree with how we describe the SAME trait.

I'd rather not pretend to agree just because to do so gives everyone the false impression a common understanding has been reached. This is more damaging as far as I am concerned because now you have not only a poorly understood trait but someone poorly explaining it to the ignorant.

I'd rather people say I'm disagreeable and obstinate, even stupid before having them believe I truly understand and they have taught me well.

Well, I'll keep my own council about gait. I see no purpose in having a discussion if we cannot accept there will be not only misunderstandings but mutual disagreements.

And for the record I didn't even bother to read the freakin' judging system because I have absolutely no interest in it. I was interested in a PEOPLE's thoughts not some system telling them what to think.

cadence (n)
Synonyms: tempo, rhythm, pace, pulse, stroke, beat
Synonyms: lilt, intonation, accent, modulation, inflection, tone

In Spanish the first is applied; in English I apply the second. Neither is necessarily wrong depending on the context and meaning applied. Please don't insult me by suggesting I don't know the meaing of words of my native language. As I have suggested in previous posts, trying to force a term to stand alone without influence of another is near impossible.

Here's what I found when I looked up the translation.

http://www.spanishdict.com/translate/cadencia

caliber

I see you point Candice, and I agreed!

grif

Jejeje, that is why I vacated this thread, Candice. It became obvious that there was not going to be a discussion here. We can all lecture to each other all day long but if there is not DIALOG then we will never come to an understanding of why some think that cadence has something to do with speed and others do not.

Kerry, we are all here to discuss issues. If the issues cannot be discussed without someone getting all upset and deciding to never share their thoughts with us again, then we may as well all go home and play with our own toys all by ourselves. I guess that those to whom you have refered are the Spanish speaking individuals in our midst. I absolutely agree with you that it is great to see them here and helping us all to share and learn more. But, to be honest with you, from those that I have met, they are not a terribly shy bunch. And not at all afraid to have tremendous discussions. Very Happy

I would much prefer to HAVE discussion rather than being lectured to, to be quite honest. I asked many questions here trying to come to some understanding of the different opinions that had been brought up. The last questions that I ask were met with no answers. Basically ignored. It was at that point that it was obvious to me that this was no longer to be a discussion. You see, it is very easy to lecture but it is takes much more thought to answer the Q and A session after the lecture. But it is in this Q and A session where most of the learning takes place. So, to me, the lecture without the Q and A session is like a sandwich with no meat. And I am a meat eater. So I decided to post some definitions that others could possibly use and leave the thread.

Having said that, here I am again. Why? Well, for one thing, Becky asked me a question that I intend to answer for her. And secondly, I felt that I had to say something about the issue of people staying silent when they have questions just to not "start something". I thought that this was the place that we COULD actually discuss like adults. Was I wrong? I really would like to hear what Diego has to say in regard to the questions that I asked of him. Candice and I both have respect for Diego. Noone is trying to diss him. We are just trying to figure out why we have these differences in words. And that is all it is, words. We all know what the horses are supposed to do. We are all in agreement when we see a horse performing correctly and when we see a horse performing incorrectly. But there is a language thing that sometimes gets in the way of the words that we use to communicate what we see. I think that that is where we are here. But if we do not discuss beyond our own egos then we will never come to complete understanding of each other and how we call things. For example, I posted all the definitions that I posted so that they could be used to futher the discussion. The response from Diego was that the definitions that I posted were very clear. I have absolutely no idea what that means or how it relates to the difference of opinion that we had about the word, cadence. I would love to know how the definitions relate in Diego's mind to his definition of cadence which is "the speed of the rhythm". But I do not have such knowledge becuse he has chosen to instead leave me with that post that I am sure he posted so as not to cause problems but what it has really done is to patronize me. To pat me on the head and give me a lollipop. But, the thing is, I can get my wn lollipops. What I would rather have from Diego is some intellectual discussion. That's why I am here. I don't have time for placating, I work for a living. So, how about we all dispense with the formalities and have some reall dialog here? Please? I will start in a new post.

grif

The first thing that I would like to bring up is the fact that we have now had enough people define the word "cadence" as "the speed of the rhythm" to warrant the question is this written down somewhere? We had this definition from Jorge Torres and from Diego and from the mysterious Puerto Rican stranger. So my question is, is there a place that this definition is written that all of these people have seen it written and learned this as the definition of cadence. If so, where is this place. I have posted all of the definitions that I have found.

Secondly, I would like to reprint the portion of the CONFEPASO rules that I posted earlier that uses the word "cadence".

"During this sequence, the pause between the strikes of the lateral and diagonal are equidistant. It is this even cadence that is the basic characteristic of the Paso Fino gait and that which distinguishes it from other gaits. Musical to the ear, it translates into rapid and equally spaced movements in a 1-2-3-4 cadence. When the horse is at its top performance, it seems unified and rhythmical, moving its legs smoothly and elastically as the feet meet the ground, projecting itself at an evenly-paced cadence and speed absorbing the motion in the back and hindquarter, exhibiting the least amount of lateral and vertical movement possible and in a constant line without any up-and-down movement, making a comfortable ride for the equestrian and making both, horse and rider, seem as one melded entity controlled by the reins and the bit."

The reason fo reposting this is that if I insert the words "the speed of the rhythm" into the places where the word "cadence" is used, the definition does not fit. The sentence does not make sense using that definition. For example, "it is this even speed of the rhythm that is the basic characteristic of the Paso Fino gait..." does not make much sense. Continue inserting this definition every time that the word cadence is used and you will see that it does not make a whole lot of sense in the context of the paragraph. But if you instead use the word "time" or "timing", it fits. So, if one looks for the definition of the word "time" in the English language, this is what one finds when "time" is used as a noun:

Main Entry: 1time
Pronunciation: \ˈtīm\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English tīma; akin to Old Norse tīmi time, Old English tīd — more at tide
Date: before 12th century
1 a: the measured or measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues : duration b: a nonspatial continuum that is measured in terms of events which succeed one another from past through present to future c: leisure <time for reading>
2: the point or period when something occurs : occasion
3 a: an appointed, fixed, or customary moment or hour for something to happen, begin, or end <arrived ahead of time> b: an opportune or suitable moment <decided it was time to retire> —often used in the phrase about time<about time for a change>
4 a: a historical period : age b: a division of geologic chronology c: conditions at present or at some specified period —usually used in plural <times are hard><move with the times> d: the present time <issues of the time>
5 a: lifetime b: a period of apprenticeship c: a term of military service d: a prison sentence
6: season <very hot for this time of year>
7 a: rate of speed : tempo b: the grouping of the beats of music : rhythm
8 a: a moment, hour, day, or year as indicated by a clock or calendar <what time is it> b: any of various systems (as sidereal or solar) of reckoning time
9 a: one of a series of recurring instances or repeated actions <you've been told many times> bplural (1): added or accumulated quantities or instances <five times greater> (2): equal fractional parts of which an indicated number equal a comparatively greater quantity <seven times smaller> <three times closer> c: turn <three times at bat>
10: finite as contrasted with infinite duration
11: a person's experience during a specified period or on a particular occasion <a good time> <a hard time>
12 a: the hours or days required to be occupied by one's work <make up time> <on company time> b: an hourly pay rate <straight time> c: wages paid at discharge or resignation <pick up your time and get out>
13 a: the playing time of a game b: time-out 1
14: a period during which something is used or available for use <computer time>
— at the same time : nevertheless, yet <slick and at the same time strangely unprofessional — Gerald Weaks>
— at times : at intervals : occasionally
— for the time being : for the present
— from time to time : once in a while : occasionally
— in no time : very quickly or soon
— in time
1: sufficiently early
2: eventually
3: in correct tempo <learn to play in time>
— on time
1 a: at the appointed time b: on schedule
2: on the installment plan
— time and again : frequently, repeatedly

Please note number 7:

7 a: rate of speed : tempo b: the grouping of the beats of music : rhythm

And think about how this relates to the definition "the speed of the rhythm". Tempo. The grouping of the beats of music. Not the "speed" that we English speakers are thinking of. But rather what we would instead call "tempo". ANd I think we may indeed be of the same mind about the definition of the word "cadence". But then again, could be that I am just chasing fairies. Anyway, that is my latest contribution to the discussion. I will now go to yet another post in order to answer Becky's question.

grif

BigJ

Well, Cindy we need the Spanish version too, because it appears what has happened could be a mistranslation/meaning of a word.

"Cadencia" in the Spanish-English dictionary is translated literally to "cadence", which the English definition has been posted many times.

Again, I mean no offense by this; however, using "cadence" in English to explain "speed" is rather confusing. I'm not about to say "slow cadence" in English to mean a relative slower speed in foot fall. I'll replace it with another word that makes clearer sense. Or I will use it in context referencing the rhythm or beat of the gait. Now I have to wonder about the rest of the terms I'm familiar with.

No wonder we have problems in the breed. No wonder when there is a judge commentary at the end of the class and I listen to almost 5 minutes of explanation in Spanish, the USA judge says, "We were looking for paso; the horse that was more paso." Badda-boom. less than a second and we have the English translation. Like what the ????? Can't the guy at least explain it in English? Obviously not!!! Or how about the time the judge explained the whole class in Spanish and then said in English, "I won't take the time to repeat what I just said in Spanish." OK, so what does that mean? No words to explain it in English or it doesn't translate well or us English speakers aren't worth the effort for a class in an English speaking country where we are trying to promote the breed to English speaking spectators in an organization that is predominantly English speaking members.

I don't mind the comments in Spanish, look forward to them and don't care if they are translated. To be clear, none of those comments in English were said by guest judges or but by our own USA judges that knew better. It makes them look and sound stupid as if they can't begin to explain why a horse was placed and you know, maybe they can't because they are too scared to offend or appear dumb to ask how to correctly describe it. Maybe it should be a required class at the Judges and Stewards clinics because now I will be listening much more closely to Tobon's comments in English.

Geez, and we have more to go. I was discussing some terms from English to Spanish concerning the phrase "on the bit" or "in the bridle" and worse, how a horseman knows what those terms mean in English but some beginners may not and how to explain it without losing the meaning. There's a Spanish phrase that translates to "holding the bit" well fine try that phrase in English to horsemen and they will stare at you because that could mean something entirely different.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I was reading Cindy's comments about all this and tend to think it is the context of what we are describing to determine what meaning is used.

I use allot of terms in the musical sense: cadence, tempo, time, beat, measure, rhythm, harmony, synchronous, etc.

However some of those same terms are more related to physics: velocity, time, cadence, speed, symmetry, etc.

Again neither are right or wrong. There will be plenty of examples where both are right.

caliber

I also think it is very important to have an open mind when it comes to the language! I think communication is the MOST important factor in life!

In going back to the original question from Becky, she was also looking for the bilingual meaning for her questions!

As a retired musician....(Cello player), I learned the hard way..... I also noticed that the only way to communicate without an instrument was through learning the International SOLFEO!, besides A, B, C, D, E..

I thank everyone for being so cleared on their defenition! this is what Pasovoice is all about! SHARE, LEARN, TEACH and Listen for a better understanding of our breed...

Cindy, you are one of the BEST trainers we have in the USA, with not a dought..... and I can attest to that..... your knowledge, experience, and understanding the breed,...... sure, I will like to see you soon be a part of the INTERNATIONAL PASO WORLD! we need people like you.......so maybe one day soon you will deside to become a CONFEPASO Judge! again, we need you! .

when i says one of the BEST TRAINERS! among a hand full.
disclaimer: MY PERSONAL OPINION

pasosx3

Hey again, great discussion, eh? Nuances of language are difficult enough in a single language let alone when translating to other languages.

grif: Thanks for responding to me! I appreciate your info on 'impact". It seems like that word would also be appropriate as it relates to my original inquiry. It's interesting also to me that in your example, the terms cadence and impact are used separately but in the same sentence. So....perhaps "impact" and "galope/galopito" are the same thing, different languages? If so then, in English, would we say "the horse has an uneven impact with his foot"? Thanks!

pasosx3

One more thing: I want to applaud everyone for their passion in this discussion of terminology! On an International platform, because there are language differences (and maybe regional differences, too), it is important to have these discussions. It is also important to recognize there may be weaknesses in the quality of the different interpretations due to inadequate and/or incorrect translations and understandings. That is the reason I asked for the Judges terminology. I figured that there would be debate among us "common" folk, but I assumed that the Judges and Judging Forums had already worked these terms out. Perhaps they have in each of their own languages or countries, but maybe not among the other countries that don't share a common language. I can only imagine this discussion in German or Dutch or Swedish, etc.....

BigJ

Bravo! We need these discussions for many reasons. Surely we can reach a level of comfort where candid statements are not taken always in a negative context. Also, recognize some formality will sometimes appear distant and detached than meant.

grif

Uhg, communication, yes, very difficult persuit. And it seems that I have failed somewhat on one point. Candice, what I meant was not to reiterate the meaning of the word cadence in English. What I meant was that I think the meaning has been, as they say, lost in translation. I thought that my direction was easily followable but alas I have obviously left out a crucial ingredient to enable one to follow my thinking clearly. You see, the point of inserting the phrase "speed of rhythm" in the CONFEPASO rule book paragraph was to determine if how I, in English, see the term "speed of rhythm" in the context of where the word cadence would be found in a paragraph that I know was written by Spanish speaking people and then translated into English since it is the Spanish speaking people who call cadence the speed of the rhythm. When it did not make any sense, I tried to think of what would make sense in place of the word cadence in that paragraph. Going back to one of the definitions of cadence, we remember that the word "time" was used. Becky took this to relate to speed but I did not see it that way. I thought that the word "time" used in that definition had more to do with timing or the "speed" of the rhythm. Not speed like we think of when we say speed in relation to footfall. But rather speed as it relates to TIMING and rhythm. (boy, this is getting redundant. I will never, however, forget how to spell rhythm again) Like the timing of the beat of a song. It does not so much relate to how fast the song is going but it does in a way relate as in the tempo. So my conclusion is that the phrase "speed of the rhythm" is a literal translation from Spanish and not a true translation of the meaning of what they are saying and a truer to their meaning translation would be tempo. The whole speed thing having more to do with timing and rhythm than it does with fastness or quickness. I think that when they say "speed of the rhythm", we are thinking "quickness of footfall". And I think that we are thinking incorrectly. Though I have no idea if I am correct about this without hearing so from the other side which is why I asked the questions that I did and why I would have liked for them to be answered. It makes total sense to me though so I guess I can live with that.

grif

grif

Felix,

love ya babe. I was going to go to the clinic in Ocala but I guess they did not want me so they canceled the whole thing. Club

Yep, I am just that vain. lmfao

BigJ

I gotcha Cin-Cin. I wasn't suggesting otherwise. Only that the Spanish "cadencia" is not the English "cadence" not in the context used in Spanish. We will discover more and more how literal translations from one language to the other loses its original meaning.

This entire thread demonstrates that our use of terms and words is a two-way street. It appears when I started to discuss cadence or candencia in Spanish it was taken to mean I was discussing the tempo or speed of the rhythm and not impact, and so a need for clarification from a Spanish perspective, which was very well presented. I simply did not agree with the use of the English term in the Spanish way just as the use of the Spanish term in the English way makes no sense.

We have to have more discussions like this to make sure we truly understand each other.

Oh, now I understand and so can now say I agree with how we use both "cadence" and "cadencia".

grif

So I had this idea. I wanted the definiton of cadencia in spanish. This is what I got:

f. Serie de sonidos, movimientos o acciones que se suceden de un modo regular o armónico: cadencia de una melodía.

Distribución armónica de los acentos y las pausas de un texto: cadencia de un poema.

En danza, armonización de los sonidos y los movimientos del bailarín: la brusca cadencia del baile moderno.

Ritmo, compás: la suave cadencia de su voz.

And this is the definition translated into English:

f. Series of sounds, movements or actions that follow one another of a regular or harmonic way: one cadence melodía. Harmonic distribution of the accents and the pauses of a text: cadence of a poem. In dance, harmonization of the sounds and the movements of the dancer: the abrupt cadence of the modern dance. Rate, compass: the smooth cadence of its voice

Still no speed mentioned. Rolling Eyes

Very frustrating. And note that the translater translates Ritmo as "rate", not rhythm.

BigJ

Frustating, so the literal translation (both ways) of cadencia/cadence doesn't attach the same literal meaning.

Oh-boy! This is gonna be fun!

When I talk to Rafael about literal translations from either language we have the same problem. He wants to keep the literal word, which isn't used with the same meanings. What happens then, the meaning and usage is great in one language and is translated into some randomized verbage of no use in another. Literal but not with the same meaning.

Now us exchanging words for different meanings is great if we are among friends, knowledgeable with terms of the paso fino gait and the breed, but that isn't the only layer. If ya'll want to use "slow cadence" in English to mean something else, well no one's gonna stop ya.

Somehow we have to take this to the outside world to other people--people who are already knowledgeable about horses, fluent in their native tongue, intelligent and thoughtful. As I said, there is no way I'm going to explain to a TN Walking horse trainer that candencia or cadence is about the tempo or speed of the footfall in gait. He'd think that either 1. I knew nothing about gait or 2. I knew nothing about horses or 3. needed a Webster dictionary. Then I'd have to explain how cadence/cadencia is used for paso fino horses in Spanish and he'd want to know why not just use a different English word. And he'd be right because I'd have to repeat this scenario with every person fluent in horsemanship, gait and English.

No more than I use the term "low hands" to mean lower elevation in foot animation. I use that among horse experts who know the English language and they'd think I didn't even know the basics of horse anatomy because every English speaking horseman knows horses have no "hands". Makes perfect sense in Spanish, absolutely bonkers in English. Oh yeah, I can act all Latino-like in a paso crowd, but please why encourage our Spanish speaking friends to say something in English that will give others a bad impression of their knowledge and abilities? No more than I would expect them to accept anything I say in Spanish that was gibberish.

I can hear the conversation now.... what?

grif

Actually, I know some Spanish speaking people who don't think horses have hands either. In fact, a Puerto Rican friend was just ranting to me the other day and telling me stories about horses not having hands. It was quite amusing. Something about if they had hands they would be able to pick their noses. Twisted Evil

What is the Judges' term for this.....

Excellent question!

Just my opinion