Delirio

britzlove · Delirio

Anybody know how close it would be possible to this horse? Any living daughters or sons, or grand offspring?

I was searching Ochoa's book for a pic of Pleybeyo yesterday and I just skimmed over him and was instantly interested.

BigJ

Could you repeat that in English? Razz

Kerry W

I've got a photo, I'm not sure it's the same one...seems there are a couple of versions of his pedigree. I'm sure there are grandget around, seems like most I've seen were through the mares...but I wasn't really looking for him, but will keep my eyes open now. Shocked

If this is the wrong photo, please say so, so we'll all know for sure. Wink

caliber

Kerry is there a year when that picture was taken?

Kerry W

Sorry, no...but I did notice his dam is spelled "Panderita", not "Pandereta", that makes me wonder...but I was hoping the owner would be a clue to help us indentify the horse.

britzlove

In English (although, Kerry seems to have got my drift, usually you do!)

Does anyone know, how close it would be possible to breed to this horse: Delerio?

Know of any surviving offspring, or grand get? (meaning I could get withing three generations of him? or 4 or more)

Thats definately not the same horse Kerry, I'll have to bring the book to the office and scan it Monday.

I like that horse just fine, this one was very much my type though.

Oh and Candice, Plebeyo, I was trying to write Plebeyo, the new gelding has his exact face, looks just like him.

Kerry W

Is it Delirio that is the sire of Monarca (Delirio x La Ligia II)? If so, I've got a photo or two of Monarca. There is quite a bit of that Monarca line here. This Mahoma is (if the pedigrees are accurate) linebred on Monarca, who is Delirio's son.

http://www.pasoregistry.com/db/Tree.asp?ID=103168

BigJ

Can't help it sometimes, Britzy.

The reason I ask is because Delirio seems to be a popular name and there were many very good horses named accordingly.

I am trying to find information about the "old" Delirio sire of Delirio who sired Monarca and Pirata with Ligia II. At least I think that is how it goes.

There's other Delirios besides these two.

britzlove

I guess the only way would be to bring the book from home, and scan it in. I almost think I can remember Don Danilo in mention close to him, and maybe Monarca, but I just remember glancing at the pic before turning the page.

Now it's eating me up..I'll have to look it up as soon as I get home from the bar tonight.
edited to add
**He may very well have been trocha too, I didn't even look, he had similar conf. to many trocha's I've seen** I'll look

Kerry W

Yeah, you and me both...going to go get the book out now! Laughing

BigJ

I absolutely love Monarca's (trocha) phenotype. If I could get that with the paso fino gait, I'd be set for life. It pleases me to no end to see a Monarca son, Don Pepe, not only so prepotent, but residing here in the USA. woo

Kerry W

There is also a Delirio II, who was the son of Cerezo, I think...and that Delirio II was the sire of Dandy. There is a photo of him in the book too, with Gustavo E.

britzlove

Well,
Thats him Kerry, by Desvelo and out of Panderita. He's under saddle in this picture in Ochoas book, and the shot makes his head more flattering than the previous posted.

So, now that we know what we are looking for maybe we can find out more about offspring.

Cool.

grif

Diosa de Prodeco was a daughter of Delirio. Her two best daughters were Pandora de Prodeco and Dorotea de Prodeco. Lori West just posted a filly that she just had from a mare that goes back to Pandora on APF. Pandora had a couple of colts and had some very good fillies. One of them was Grand National fino and bella forma champion Semilla de Corazon Bravo. Rick Meyer had a colt from her and Plebeyo that was supposed to be good but he had some health problems so did not show. Semilla was owned by Stan Goldman last that I knew but he may have sold her by now. Stan had problems getting her in foal and never got anything to speak of from her. Semilla was probably the best horse I have ever ridden. And her mother Pandora was not far behind. Dorotea had a couple of pretty good colts. You could talk to Charlie and Milda Minter. They may have a colt from her still named Diamante de Dulce. She had some very good fillies. And I think they still have mares that go back to her as well. Pandora and Dorotea are both deceased but you could check on there offspring. That is probably about as close as you will get. Or check for other Diosa de Prodeco offspring. She was an amazing producer.

Kerry W

Okay...new issue. There are two Panderetas listed as his dam

http://www.pasoregistry.com/db/Tree.asp?ID=107381 (Pielroja x Venus)

http://www.pasoregistry.com/db/Tree.asp?ID=104799 (Profeta x Tuna)

Which is correct?

caliber

Kerry according to the "Arbol Genealogico de Caballo de Paso Fino Colombiano"

DelirioIII dam is Pandereta! and Pandereta's was by Profeta

Kerry W

Thanks Caliber!! So, Delirio was half brother to Plebeyo?

Pandereta

caliber

On paper yes, everything indicates that they are related!

caliber

Britz, you can also check on this list!

http://www.tesiopower.com/pf/offspring.aspx?hID=14030

BigJ

I usually start with any birth dates I can find: when were the parents born, when was Delirio born, when were his offspring born, who the offspring were bred to and when they were born

I try to find out where the horse was born to see if his parents may have actually been born in the same geographical area or not. Depending on the time frame, this has to make some sense if transportation wasn't easy OR if horses were maintained regionally.

I try to find out who the breeders were involved in the conception: who owned Desvelo, who owned Pandereta, etc.

I also try to find out what other horses were bred to the mare. Sometimes the horses listed correspond to a breeder, a region or a time line. I also try to find out as much as I can about the ancestors. For instance, Piel Roja was bred to Venus, but how many offspring did Venus have, when, by what breed, and how many were by Piel Roja? This will help to determine if it is a false lead or not.

Whether any of this is true or not is another subject, but if some of this information can be found, it usually lends to one or the other as being more/less true. Sometimes I have found neither pedigree to be valid as in previous cases I've researched.

The last question to answer is does it matter? If Delirio III is a sire with enough prepotency as to stand on his own merits independent of his ancestors, do we care if talking about accessing grandget or sons and daughters?

caliber

Desvelo- Was borned in Popayan, Colombia January 1st, 1953.. his breeder was Mr. Carlos Ochoa... Desvelo is a by Gaucho and out of Cabinera.

Desvelo was known to be a very fino horse but lacked brio....he had some extraordinary offsprings such like
La Chunga, Cerezo, Anfrition, Trasnocho, Delirio, Briacon y Botafogo.

Desvelo was a full brother to La Divina, CastaliaI, Cometa II, and Soberano.

Desvelo died in 1978, his present owner was Mr. Arcesio Nicholls, whom owned him for almost his entired life.

Pandereta: owned By Criadero La Estancia owned my a person that was very well known in Florida Mr. Milo Sarria, the breeder of Plebeyo, among other great horses like TiTo Livio, Hiroito, Libertador, Primavera, Pubenza, Idolo Internacional, Dictador, Popayan, La Libertad, La Plumaje, Consentida, Marquesa, Jalisco, Piicapiedra and Gasolina to name a few!

britzlove

Pictures finally

britzlove

Mr. Ochoa lists the breeder of Pandereta as ALvaro Madrinan H. best I can figure with translation. And the birth of Plebeyo as 6/2/1984.

Also, it lists Panderita not Pandereta as his, Delirio's dam, and lists her as a daughter of Indiano and out of mare Verbena.

On another note, there is a personal note on the one photo and it is dated 12/5/1985 but I can read it even with a magnifyer, the handwriting is just too flamboyant. The date is clear, very clear.

Now, if that Indiano is by any chance one of the Andalusian Indiano's, that might be interesting. I know it's not too cool to talk about that stuff, but the Indiano's were all excellent representations of near perfect equines.

And also, do we think this is the same shot but photo shopped? Could they photo shop when this book was done? Many things make me think it's the same, but some make me think it might very well be two shots of him standing exactly the same.?????

Candice, I'm only playing with trying to find out why certain horses get me more excited than others. There are just many things I am really liking on him and I'd like to comare it to others. I was just wondering, since he's appearing to me to be a late 70s/early 80s model horse, if it wouldn't be possible to find pictures of several of his offspring. Just to see...how similar they appear to him.

Kerry W

I think the first photo is a painting (a photo of a painting), and the second photo was used as a model for the painting, Britz.

BigJ

Another tool I use allot is coat color. Now we see Pandereta was grey. In my notes Venus was a grey mare. For Pandereta to be grey, she had to have at least one grey parent.

Now interestingly here's the breakdown:

Pandereta=Profeta X Tuna

Profeta=Cometa X Marquesa II (Estrella) We know Cometa was palomino so that leaves Marquesa II

Marquesa II=Jazmin X Marquesa I don't have the colors on either one BUT

Jazmin=Resorte I X Venus; Venus was grey

So we have to confirm the colors of Jazmin and Marquesa II

Tuna=Revuelo X ???

Revuelo=Gaucho and Gaviota We know Gaucho wasn't grey

Gaviota=Cometa X La Favorita We know Cometa wasn't grey.

La Favorita=Resorte I X Venus

According to a tranlation about Venus, Favorita was bay not grey. If this is true then Gaviota was not grey therefore Revuelo wan't grey either. However, it does not prove Tuna was not grey unless we know the coat color of her mother.

The other pedigree: Piel Roja X Venus has to be tested as well but not with coat color since we know Venus was a grey mare and did provide one grey offspring: Plumaje.

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I understand completely Britz. I've done the same with several horses that keep me completely agitated and breathless. The prize is the journey for me. As I learn more, my reasons for the attraction become more clear and the vision much more crisp. For instance studying Anfitrion has led me to Pistolero/Cabuyero/Caballo Viejo and not to Desvelo as I had thought it would. Majestuoso led me to Monarquita, Antilope, and Duque. Duque led me to Monarca who led me back to Chucuano. Bochica led me to Plumaje to Piel Roja to Venus and back to Resorte III. So one never knows...

I have heard the Plebeyo X Semilla de Corazon Bravo, Royal Oak Dinero is very fino and has electrifying brio. Also Semilla had another colt from Profeta, but I'd cofirm the last. Diamante de Dulce is not too far from you either.

grif

Britz, both Plebeyo and Diosa de Prodeco were born in 1970. I think your time table is a bit off. I don't know the DOB of Delirio but the latest it could have been was in the 1960's.

caliber

Anyone recognizes the rider! I thought it looked like Rafi Rivera! and Rafi dedicated the picture to Don Fabio back in 1985!, I think his book came out in 1987!

YEAH! Britz!! in 1985 Plebeyo was already in Homestead, Florida having fun! jejeje

britzlove

Are we not touching the pedigree issue about Panderita with an "I" by Indiano and Verbena?

And I'm still a little confused about dates and Cindy I'm totally sorry but I must have completely skimmed over your first post and it gave me some good things to follow up on, you must have felt I wasn't listening Embarassed

I read it now thanks for the info. I'm looking at these dates, so it's still a little confusing. If Plebeyo produced offspring into the 90s, then I'm curious to find horses with Delirio.

Hopefully I'll keep getting leads.

Candice, I see what you mean, and it all could lead to nothing close to what I started with. It's just fun, and interesting. Smile

grif

The PFHA CD shows Diosa having 7 siblings by Delirio. Most are not registered here so there is no birthdate. There are 3 that are registered all born in 1974. I don't think you are going to find what you are looking for as far as the dates but if you are going to find it, you will find it in Colombia, not here. By the way, Semilla looks a lot like Delirio.

britzlove

I just googled about a billion references to Semilla, and found her on Stan's about us page, she's listed as a breeding cornerstone legendary mare, but found no relatives on his pages.

I did find Rick Meyer's colt, Royal Oak Ricochet who's quite impressive, a son of Semilla. Maybe I can get one of them, someone to send a picture of Semilla.

I'm gonna keep looking into offspring. It'll be a long while I think. I'm hoping to find some help finding them in Colombia too.

grif

Actually, Rick's colt that I was refering to was named Dinero so he must have two. If you can get some old PFHWs I know that she won Nationals in Fino in 1992. Am not sure the other years that she showed though or exactly when she won BF. But it would be around that time.

britzlove

That thought didn't even occur to me, I'll search Deb's library. Thanks! Mega fun journey already!

britzlove

OK, Verbena, listed as the dam of the Delirio I posted, is also the mother of Majestuoso, but I can't find anything on Indiano at all.

Kerry W

Look in the little book, Britz...I saw a reference to him last night. I'll check too, to see if I can find it.

BigJ

Royal Oak Ricochet, if I recall correctly, was shown in BF and Fino colts at the 2007 PFHA Nationals. And if my memory serves me still, his stature is allot like his sire's, Profeta. I think he was also in the Fino finals as well. I'm sure if you can get a copy the classes, you'll see Rick Meyer showing him.

There is a second colt out of Semilla that is older by Plebeyo. This is Royal Oak Dinero.

I have found four pedigrees for Pandereta:

1. in Valentin del Ocho, dam Valentina
Valentina is Briancon X ???
Briancon is Desvelo X Pandereta
Pandereta is Caballo Viejo X Fantasia

2. in Diosa de Prodeco
Diosa is Delirio X Canaria
Delirio is Desvelo X Pandereta
Pandereta is Indiano X Verbena I

3. in Plebeyo
Plebeyo is Chucuano X Pandereta
Pandereta is Profeta X Tuna

4. Pandereta as Piel Roja X Venus

caliber

2007 PFHA National results! for Royal Oak Ricochet

2.Bella Forma 2004 (3 year old) Colts
Judge A: Miranda, Nicanor
Judge B: Ochoa, Angela
Judge C: Pastrana, Miguel

Plc Nbr Horse Rider Owner A B C
1 294 Royal Oak Ricochet (46459) Janice & Rick Meyer Royal Oak Ranch 1 1 1 2 624 Lothario LTD (44598) Robin Ratliff & Rufino Figueroa Daneen A Hitchcock 2 2 2
3 542 Bocho de Ca' Grande (44408) Bill Minter & Paul Mercer Paso Fino Ca'Grande Inc. & Tony Casagrande 3 4 3
4 138 Nitro de Amadeus (44259) Derek Fernandez Kay Turner 4 3 4
5 643 Predilecto de La Amistad (44608) Mary Rizo-Patron & Alfred Rizo-Patron Alfredo & Mary Rizo-Patron 5 5 5
6 392 Xtra de Estaban (43697) Paul Marlow & Charles Minter Jr. James & Loretta Stephens 6 6 6
Entries: 6

9.Fino 2004 (3 year old) Colts
Judge A: Pastrana, Miguel
Judge B: Laracuente, Dr. Jose
Judge C: Bradley, E Rex

Plc Nbr Horse Rider Owner A B C
1 513 El Aprendiz de Colores (47087) Kelley Cox Barbara and Kelly Allyn Cox 1 1 1
2 832 Terrorista de JH (50095) Juan Espino Antonio Lopez 2 2 2
3 442 Robusto de Profeta (44268) Javier Suarez (Vincente Rodriguez) Hacienda Culminante 3 3 3
4 820 Sensacional del GM (50575) Alvin Perez Galo Montenegro 4 4 5
5 685 Hechizo de La Querencia (49783) Alonso Betancur Jose Benitez M.D. & Humberto Berrios 5 5 6
6 294 Royal Oak Ricochet (46459) Rick Meyer Royal Oak Ranch 7 6 4
7 765 El Futuro de La Cosecha (44211) Xavier Ayala David Diaz-Torres 6 7 7
0 383 Insomnio de United (43470) José Lozada Seven Charms Farms LLC
0 493 A cappella's Adonis (44065) Alex Kirk Andy & Kathy Wen
0 724 El Gobernador de Venari (44098) David Zapata Jose & Maria Picayo
0 785 Capuchino Dos de Cuatro Aces (45720) Fabio Trujillo Pedro J Adrian
Entries: 11

39.Bella Forma Stallions and Colts Championship
1 #294 Royal Oak Rocochet2 #743 Intocable de AJ
3 #475 Retador de Eco
4 #540 El Idolo del Porvnir
HM #860 Veneno de la Clara

grif

Candice, on the PFHA CD behind Diosa, Pandereta is listed as Profeta x Tuna. Where did you see it the other way?

BigJ

I'll have to look for it again Cindy. I found it yesterday, but didn't pay attention to the specific pedigree. Confused

Over the years of studying pedigrees, I've discovered a tendency to "fill" omissions or voids with horses that were popular or highly respected. It is very disconcerting. However, I also noticed the horses used were generally contemporaries so I try to use this information to "date" certain horses and develop a general timeline. This pattern isn't limited to a specific country, region, or time period.

Very bad attempts at this tend to have rather fantastic crosses or inbreedings that are highly unlikely. Also mares and stallions will be mated that are too young or old to have produced offspring. My favs are horses born before their parents.

EDIT: Ok, I found the reference for Diosa. It's in a pedigree I manufactured for Diamante de Dulce. However, I didn't document where I got this info--maybe pasopedigree.com??? The PFHA database does not show any "Pandereta" as Indiano X Verbena I. Nada, nunca, none, zero.

Pandereta shows up on 8 seperate instances, 7 appear to be pertinent. I list the crosses below:

1. ??? X ???
2. Caballo Viejo X Fantasia
3. Honorable X Bazana
4. Piel Roja X Venus
5. Plumaje X Cereza
6. Profeta x Tuna
7. Profeta x Tuna
8. Superman del Ocho X Castanuela

Pandereta shows up as the dam in 19 instances. I'll have to edit out the info and post separately.

britzlove

Royal Oak Ricochet is very representative of Profeta. Still, to be such a nice horse, his momma brought plenty to the table too.

And, on this debate about Pandereta, I'm gonna say that the picture I posted is in the book on page 267 and is referenced as a horse named Delirio, who was by Desvelo, and out of a mare named Panderita with an "i" sired by Indiano and out of Verbena. Now, I've seen a reference in the smaller book that says Indiano was sired by Delirio. Probably another, older Delirio.

All of that confusion aside, I have found several siblings to Diosa, with the suffix "de Prodeco". Any idea where de Prodeco comes from? It would go far in the search for the offspring off some Delirio.

Kerry W

de Prodeco = Arturo Blanco

britzlove

Arturo Blanco=?

Kerry W

The name of the breeder of the de Prodeco horses.

BigJ

Panderita shows up in the PFHA database as ???? X ????

There are no offspring associated with Panderita in PFHA.

Just an aside thought but if you look at Profeta and his parents, Nevado and Profetiza and then Semilla, it would have VERY exciting if Ricochet had thrown to the dams instead back to the sire line.

Well, that is interesting about Panderita because her son is known as Delirio III and sometimes the name is based on either an ancestor OR on subjectively linking phenotype. Not always, since folks love to copycat for marketing appearances, but the older the horse the less likely is was for commercial purposes. I don't know how Colombian breeders name horses but in PR it is still traditional for the name to have some story or meaning behind it and not just be a title only.

EDIT: Another thought: If Indiano is a son of the old Delirio then seeing Verbena mated to him does have some logic to it (if we are to believe other pedigree sources).

britzlove

I tried to email Mr Blanco at an address listed in the World of Paso Fino Horses website. Returned.

Any way we can try to contact him regarding the several offspring he bred of Delirio? What is an acceptable way to try and follow this lead?

If we accept that Delirio, was Delirio III, then perhaps if I can find the offspring listed as sons and daughters of him, and there is a very small chance that there may even be a surviving one.

grif

Here is Pandora de Prodeco, mother of Semilla de Corazon Bravo, granddaughter of Delirio at the Nationals in 1988....

caliber

Thanks for sharing the picture Cindy, both of you looked fantastic! great match.

WOW! she looks alot like Pandereta to me!!!!!! she was awesome!

britzlove

WOW! Thanks 6 million Cindy! The shoulder and hip are there, it kinda looks like the neck connection is there (don't have a clue what to call that).

Now because of something Felix posted, how was her brio? If Desvelo didn't have much, I'm hoping that didn't transmit.

How cool is this! Deb has all the 1992 PFHW's so hopefully she's looking for Semilla for me.

Oooh, one more question, any idea how old she was in that photo?

grif

She was born in 1978 so she was 10 in that photo. As far as brio goes, I would say she was average. She was not lazy for sure but she was not one of those horses who would go all day and kill herself. She would get tired and you knew it. In fact, she got tired in this class and that was my fault. I listened to another trainer about how to warm her up when I should have done what I knew instead. I think it cost me a few places. I don't do that any more. Very Happy

But I would not say that she lacked brio or that she was lazy by any means as she was not. Now, her daughter Semilla has brio to spare. That is one who would go all day and kill herself for sure.

Editing to add. You must also note that she was a daughter of Bochica. Bochica offspring are known for having good minds but not a lot of fire. Her sister, Dorotea, on the other hand was from Resorte 4 and was a horse with more brio, I would say. But still very controled with a good mind.

BigJ

I agree with Cindy about Bochica, as much as I adore the line. Best known for good minds, nobility and a quiet nature; not the best in brio but still good. I keep going back to it for the brains and the character.

britzlove

Thanks, great info you two.

I need to search out some Bochica horses if possible, to observe and see if I can observe what you mean in a practical application.

I wonder if there are any close...or maybe will have to wait until the next show. Not such good places to really observe though.

BigJ · Bochica

The Bochica horses are almost gone Britz. There are some sires claimed to be direct still alive in the USA and even more rare, some broodmares. However, this line wasn't promoted as well or given the exposure like Resorte IV. Unfortunately, too, there are pedigrees that aren't accurate as well, so look carefully. Sometimes they are rather fantastic papers. I've researched just about every Bochica horse I can find trying to determine what is or is not a legit claim and which branches will provide the typiness I'm looking for. I loved Bochica's phenotype very much. However, given the circumstances of trying to verify what is or is not by Bochica it's hard to determine his production. If everything is taken at face value he was not a consistent producer with his phenotype at all and lent more to the mental capacities instead.

The remaining sons are Don Gaspar de SantaMonica, Gracioso and El Augila de San Felipe. In recent years we lost Bochica Tres and Ocaso de Bochica. Postin passed away last year in Colombia. I'm not sure if Colombia has any remaining sons.

The youngest daughters are in their mid-20's now and most are deceased. The youngest, Brasilia was exported to Europe and died there.

I have found only three stallions with Bochica top and bottom residing in the USA. I consider it a requirement for increasing the genetic ability of Bochica to have the inbreeding from both dam and sire if you are linebreeding back to Bochica. Of those 3, one is currently in Puerto Rico. There are some mares, maybe 5 or so that have the same pattern. These horses are all teenagers now and very few are direct grandget. This is a male line that is going extinct rapidly and the rest is getting too dilute by outcrossing. There is very, very little linebreeding going on using Bochica either.

Just my thinking out loud, but I don't see Bochica as a candidate to inbreed to but more as an essential ingredient to linebreed further using Resorte III (not Resorte IV) and some Cerezo. Bochica/RIII seem complimentary and melds well with the "older" lines like Mahoma and Pistolero. I don't consider Bochica having the genetic prepotency nor the best of all traits to consider him viable alone. I'm trying it because I think ultimately the Resorte stock will need refreshing.

I have seen some uncanny likeness in phenotype from the "del Juncal" stock crossing Postin with Duque or Majestuoso. Hard to say which the horses favor most. I've seen allot of Majestuoso crosses and to me the most attractive ones will have some of Postin in there. They have a grander character about them.

grif

Candice, you do know that I used to have a Bochica Tres son, don't you? His mother was Marichela, a Resorte IV daughter. I liked the cross very well. And his daughters have proven to be very good procucers. They seem to cross well with my new boy too which I would have expected. He may have one ungelded son left but I would have to check on that. When I knew this son he was a yearling and very handsome. You would have liked him. I don't know what has been done with him though. How do you like this pedegree....
Chucuano

Plebeyo
Pandereta
El Classico De Plebeyo
Contrapunto
La Classica del Classico
Cerezo
La Siria
Promesa

Bochica

Bochica Tres
La Serpentina

Zapata Bravo Resorte IV
Marichuela
Marlena Dos La Estirpe I

Mar de Plata
Marlena LaCE
Madrelena La CE

caliber

wow! Cindy! what an interesting cross! WOW!

grif

caliber

How can I forget! awesome awesome !!!!!!

grif

Here he is....

caliber

That is him! he is impressive! He truly is an asset to this breed! he is stunning!

grif

Thanks

Kerry W

He is stunning Cindy! Shocked

BigJ

What's not to like??? Excepting my own biases...of course.

As you know, Cindy, I really believe in the Resorte IV/RIII blends with Classico and the overall blend of Resortes with Chucuanos/Pistolero and or Confidente thrown in the mix. I've seen a few Chucuano/Bochica only inbred horses. I'm not sure what to think about them. Their production wasn't what I expected, but then my subjectivity suggests they would have done well with RIV horses. What I've seen most were crossed differently.

I remember Zapata very well as a colt and young stallion. I'm just now researching the Bochica Tres horses with greater depth. Shame I didn't stay in California long enough to get to know Bochia Tres' production better.

Interesting you should mention Zapata as a mare producer. I'm been trying to look more into sons of RIV mares. Some weird idea I have about mares by a prepotent sire line...not worth discussing.

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That was a roundabout, but going back to Delirio III and Dorotea de Prodeco, Santa Humo was a really nice Bochica Tres horse out of Dorotea. Very nice cross. He was quiet like the Bochica traits I liked by had a little more energy. Too bad we lost him too.

Now thinking about it with Semilla's two sons and with Santa Humo's daughters. That would be some nice linebreeding to try. There's enough of Santa Humo and Zapata mares to think about this. Ah, particularly if Panderta is the same mare for Plebeyo and Deliro III.

Well darn I just checked the PFHA CD and Royal Oak Dinero is deceased!!! Crying or Very sad

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I was a HUGE proponent of gelding everything in sight, but I have begun to rethink that attitude. I have seen tremendous mares by stallions I didn't consider masculine enough or powerful enough or whatever machismo superlative I tended to judge a stallion by. I'm not talking about colts which obviously lack qualities, but the ones who are very nicely bred, very nice traits, have an overall quality about them but are not outstanding individuals. I've seen short periods of time where our stallions are rather oh-hum and it is their daughters that carry the breed.

grif

Wow, lots to comment on. It always amazes me how much alike our theories are.

BigJ

grif

I just had a thought when I read what you said about the El Duende line going extinct. Here is how the thought came to be. I have a client who has a daughter of Misterio and she has a son of her and Turista that we are showing this year. So my thought was, "We still see these lines. But we see them in the mares who are being bred as opposed to in the stallions who are being bred." And then I thought back to our the conversation about stallions producing more good mares than good stallions. And my thoughts then went to "Perhaps we produce better mares because the mares that we breed have more diversity in their lines than do the stallions." To understand this you must understand my theory that the male lines in a breeding have greater effect on the males horses produced and the female lines in a breeding have more influence on the female horses produced. I think these observations help to prove that this theory has some base.

BigJ

Good thoughts Cindy!

goodpost

This a favorite subject of mine so I posted a response separately to keep this one on Delirio. He deserves the attention.

http://pasovoice.com/sutra1458.php#1458

BigJ · Delirio with Indiana as dam

I finally took the time to look at the PFHA database. This is current as of 2005.

There is one mare owned by Carmen Michelette whose sire is Delirio with his dam as Indiana.

http://pasoregistry.com/db/Tree.asp?ID=81076

She is the dam of Carmen's stallion Tornado de Gurabo

http://pasoregistry.com/db/Tree.asp?ID=80565

britzlove

Ohhhh head ache of headache's. Thanks though. I can't believe it's so hard to figure this all out!

I have found many similar combinations though, that appear to have enough in common with him.

I'm off to see if I can find a picture of her stallion now.

I just know there has to be some close offspring in Colombia, I just know there is.

britzlove

Well, I havent found pics not any of Turabo, though I found a daughter and mention of him in text.

However, thanks so much for making to go to the Micheletti's website, forgot to put my drool drop cloth down though..now there's drool everywhere!

Hehe, I think that I have enjoyed visiting that sight the most since I discovered the breed. I had the opportunity to thank her at Mundial for providing me so joy! (Carmen I mean)

BigJ · Turabo

I'm sure Cristy has some pics of Turabo.

But if you mean Tornado, I might ask a friend of mine who has a very nice son by him.

britzlove

yes, I meant Tornado I guess, the Delirio removed offspring

britzlove

Look what I found now that we've discussed this so long. I was searching for a picture of Plebeyo when I crossed the photo of Delirio.

http://www.pasoregistry.com/db/Tree.asp?ID=101442

There's my new horse's pedigree that spawned the search for Plebeyo, and now that we have mentioned some horses here, look who his great-grandma is.

Funny it didn't stand out right away, and I know that Delirio is way back, but it's just neat to find the link.

grif

caliber

BRITZ! Look what I found! Delerio is there!!!!
this mare is very interesting!

http://www.pasoregistry.com/db/Tree.asp?ID=81266

Hacienda Radiante

Is it too much to hope that at some point the PFHA will make public the photos that you send for registering your horse? Granted, most of them will be immature hairy little juvenile delinquents (like mine), but it would still be interesting to see the common characteristics that transmit from particular stallions and mares. Seems like it would be easier to do with digital photos and all. And since you all seem to have infected me with some kind of weird bloodline researching bug (Eblis strain), it would help in doing the phenotype research. Laughing

caliber

You have great point! I remember, dont know if still happening! the Puerto Rican Federation included the picture of the horses in the registry. But also like to see the young pictures, like you said, alot cold come from it.

Good Idea!

grif

britzlove

Either one of you want to explain?

Felix, what do you find interesting? Is there some particular line or combination there?

Cindy, I'm sure there's a lesson there somewhere...what?

I thought this was the BB of un-confusion, but I'm confused.

BigJ

Chucuano horses can get pudgy, no-necked. The inbreeding suggests that if there's a neck anywhere it had to be Delirio (reference previous photos).

The breeding is interesting because of the inbreeding. If you have an opportunity to see inbred chucuano horses (and you MUST try to before they are gone!) they are interesting in many factors: production, temperament, phenotype, gait. The best way to say it is they are very "chucuano", which is why it's a good idea to dig a few up and look at them.

britzlove

Oh, well thanks Candice! Now that makes sense I "get" it. Now if Felix will come and explain more what was interesting to him, I'll be good.

With this thread, I learned ALOT. And it's such a small world really, I'm now finding Delirio everywhere, at least some reference to some Delirio. And just this week I found a gelding that was a grandson, so thats the closest I've found, unfortunately, the rest of the pedigree left him kinda puky, so, just more of the learning needs to be done.

But you know, like I said, I didn't even recognize Delirio in Nino's pedigree until we had discussed his offspring for awhile, so at least now I have something else to look for.

Now, I shall go start a thread on Chucuano.

BigJ · Suntuoso

I forgot to add the Suntuoso horses are really nice. I've seen a few daughters and they all have reallly nice angles and attachments on the front end, so some of it might be his influence too.

Remember me talking to Julio about a mare I want badly at Mundial? She's Suntuoso.

And there's a relation here with Premier de Chapiro who has Rabicana on the bottom.

britzlove

I'm thinking you're gonna have to start a thread on Suntuoso. I've never even heard that name before.

On Premier de Chapiro, I love him too. If we don't start the threads though, we may not remember to come back to it.

So, now get thyself over to comment on Chucuano, and then start one on Suntuoso (I am seriously so curious it's killing me).

I'll go start one on Premier de Chapiro.

caliber

I agree with Candice, Suntuosos mares are all huge, great conformation, at least the ones I known!

britzlove

Stop! You're making it worse Mad

Tell me, show me more!

BigJ

Good luck to ya, Britzy! It's hard to keep them all separated.

I finally bought a dry-erase board and work out the horses, relationships and how different lines link up. I then photograph the board, save it to my PC to work up a chart later. Better than the piles of papers I have all over the place. Bigger too, so I can get everything written down in one place instead of using many sheets of paper. I've got some stuff years old, I need to catalog. Embarassed

It helps me when I do an "AHA!" and am afraid of forgetting what I just think I figured out.

caliber

Britz check him out http://www.tesiopower.com/pf/sixgen.aspx?hID=47497

he is down the road from me! if you need further pictures!!!!!!

make an offer!!!!

Thought you might be interested! Wink

temperament is FANTASTIC!
Trail/Show, Chase Cows or chase your enemies! jejejeje I like him!

Disclaimer: Permission granted to post picture by Ms. Kent! (trainer and owner of Santa Fe Paso Fino Farm.

Not a paid Ad........ Laughing

britzlove

Thanks Felix, I LOVE that horse, can't believe he's for sale. And that's close up Delirio, very nice horse.

If I had money to buy another one I'd buy that Hussein gelding they sold off APF though, remember him? He's for sale again too.

I suppose I'll be having my sweet girls and my little red hot shot forever.

caliber

Morning Britz, sure I remember the Hussein Gelding...

I agreed, Evidencia is a great horse!

BigJ

I like him too. He sure looks very correct; I bet he could fix allot of problems. You can't beat the breeding at all.

Hacienda Radiante

Just updating some information from back at the beginning of this thread... a client of ours just purchased Diamonte de Dulce from the Minters, so he's now with us in Virginia. He's a very mannerly stallion, great attitude, very clean legs and a balanced way of going. I believe Milda said he competed at the national level in Pleasure Stallions, will try to get a copy of his records. He is a direct Majestuoso son, has that phenotype (long neck, long legs, long back) and is greying to white. I think she is planning on standing him to outside mares as well as her own, he'd probably put height and elegance on the 'shorties' out there without risk of losing a nice temperament. Will try to get some pictures when the weather improves, but here is his pedigree: http://www.tesiopower.com/pf/sixgen.aspx?hID=17309

BigJ

This is a digression from the subject

Really I do object to describing our pasos according to a SHOW category.

I realize it's not meant to be in any way a negative thing, but how does one explain this to others when we use other show terms such as "fino" to describe not just a show class, but breeding and performance attributes and the breed itself? Also, how does one tell another how the same attributes are found in all horses but they belong in separate categories.

I believe this is why we have confused allot of people and why we have American breeders thinking they are breeding a "type" of XXXX-horse when they are not.

Wouldn't it be easier to assess a horse and say it could compete in XXXX class?

Any time we label a horse we almost immediately segregate the horse to limited possibilities.

This horse should have all the opportunities available because he has very good phenotype, gait, size, disposition-all VERY good attributes of the paso fino breed. He can potentially correct allot of VERY poor attributes I see in today's competitive mares. This goes back to the many discussions we have had here about good, solid stallions and their critical role as producers. They contribute to the solid foundation needed to build brilliant animals. Nothing stands alone.

Remember some of the best breeding animals were NOT show horses or even "fino" gaited.

Hacienda Radiante

I actually agree with you, most specifically because the definitions of what constitute 'Pleasure gait' in the show ring, for example, seem to be continually drifting. Twisted Evil

In this particular case though, I don't know enough about this horse to describe the other things he's done, so for his 'resume' I describe him as showing in Pleasure. Doesn't mean he's not capable of doing 95 other things than showing, but that's what he's done thus far. I have a mare who was a youth Pleasure champ, drill team horse, has done team penning and was my trail horse for years. When describing her, I mention all these things. I don't weigh one thing more than the other -- that IS her curriculum vitae (hope I spelled that right). Personally I feel that by describing what a horse HAS done I tell someone what they CAN do without limiting what they COULD do.

Hope that makes sense... I'm definitely at the low blood sugar part of the day! Very Happy

britzlove

HR, I will REALLY look forward to pictures when you can get them. I completely understand the weather thing. Mine are still a little fuzzy, and even our trees are a few weeks behind where they should be. I want to get some pics of mine up soon too.

Candice, I see what you mean, but didn't exactly get where it came from. Not the mention of Evidencia, nor HR's stallion, unless you were commenting on how info was posted about both without classification?

This thread has been one of the best for me.

BigJ

I see what you mean Britz.

I overreacted, HR. My apologies...

oops

britzlove

I thought maybe that was the case. It wasn't harsh, I just wanted to clarify.

I agree totally with the statement that though classification kind of goes with our US market, there's certainly not enough predictability to use it the way its used.

Hacienda Radiante

Absolutely no offense taken -- it's very healthy to debate this subject and certainly keeps me thinking about ways in which I describe these critters and how it may be interpreted by others. Press on, MacDuff (or Candice, in this case) -- you are absolutely doing the right thing! Very Happy

BigJ

caliber

caliber

I felt this information on the "Delirio's" from Colombia is important for the records!

DELIRIO I (Resorte III X Inquietud)

DELIRIO II ( Delirio X Morenita - Pirata)
DELIRIO II ( Carey X Mi Fortuna) Papa De Valentina De Chispaso

DELIRIO III ( Desvelo X Pandereta)

Delirio

Bochica

Delirio with Indiana as dam

Turabo

Suntuoso